High Powered eBike Camping: Enter the Realm of Highly Compromised Decisions and Deeply Ambivalent Feelings

BikeMike

Active Member
Simplification Rule #6: Think in Terms of Ratios

Ratios bring a sense of proportion to vague or ambiguous situations. For example, the 2021 Sienna battery is a mere 1.8Wh. You might recharge three or four times, or a 1:4 ratio. A 1:4 ratio is a high cost to benefit ratio. The RAV4 Prime 18Wh battery is a 1:40 recharge ratio. I generally find 1:50 ratios to be the compelling point for any type of rechargable battery.

I don't think the 2021 Sienna is a high value. I think the "Prime" trim models are high value. Don't let desires interfere with needs. I need a 40:1 recharge ratio to justify buying a hybrid. You can compress all the information about the buying decision down to this one ratio.

Actually, a 6:1 ratio, but not even close to 40:1.

Battery: 320 Wh (160 Wh range extender sold separately)

Motor: Specialized SL 1.1, torque = 35 Nm, nominal watts = 240, peak watts = 240

Charge Time: 2 hrs 20 mins

You can also evaluate from a operation-to-charge ratio. The longer you can ride on a single charge, the more enjoyable and economical.

I find the ratios particularly useful regarding power modes. My goal is a 2:1 human-to-motor-power ratio. The battery range improves. This means setting the power level to very low levels.

Ternary ratios are often more powerful than binary ratios. You might be more interested in a Venn diagram, or ternary ratio, to evaluate more complex situations. A symmetrical ternary ratio is 1:1:1. You are looking at a computer ternary ratio of Red, Green and Blue (RGB) colors.

Grand Teton to Steamboat Springs on Tour Divide Trail Example (430 miles)

The buying decision is simplified by making a ternary decision between three primary factors:
  1. Livability
    1. Sienna much higher than RAV4
  2. Power Supply
    1. RAV4 ten times higher than Sienna
    2. Needed for purposes other than eBike battery recharging, e.g., cooking, light, computer, etc....
    3. RAV4 has plugin recharging, which vastly improves utility. See map below.
    4. A quick check indicates about 400 miles without car recharge station.
  3. Cost, Benefit and Value
    1. Sienna trim and camper popup cost is higher than RAV4 Prime
    2. Trade RAV4 Prime in for a Sienna Prime, when and if, manufactured, to minimize losses.
The ternary ratios of the RAV4 Prime (with 6.6kW Level 2 charger option) and 2021 Sienna can inform your buying decision. I will elaborate further at a later date. I just wanted to communicate the concept, rather than specific details.​
Today, i would probably choose the RAV4 Prime over the 2021 Sienna, because where to sleep is easier for me to accomodate. I could sleep in a tent, for example. Ultimately, i would trade in the RAV4 Prime for a Sienna Prime to minimize financial loss of compromise and maximize long-term benefits.
A Sienna Prime will probably approximate Symmetry, or 1:1:1 ratio. Until a Sienna Prime is manufactured the compromises will be highly unbalanced. The ultimate cost will be high.
Your needs and values probably do and will differ.
Is Wyoming population too sparse, distances too great or winters too cold? Same for Vermont and New Hampshire? The Tour Divide near WY and CO border is a good example of the case for RAV4 Prime, because of the 18Wh capacity.​
The Tour Divide intersects I-80 in Rawlins. The distance from Rawlins to Steamboat Springs is 151 miles. Tour Divide Crosses the CO border near Savery on route to Steamboat Springs. Steamboat surprised me with 25 Level 2 stations.​
My guess is Grand Teton, 280 miles north of Rawlins, is the next Level 2 station. Probably 430 miles without a Level 2 charger, but I don't have time to check now. Time to jump on my bike.​
Rawlins actually has eight Tesla supercharger stations, but no others.​
A small university town, like Laramie, WY, on I-80, is interesting. Eight Tesla supercharger stations, but no others. I expected to find a few Level 2 stations, due to UW.​
IMG_1017.JPG
 
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BikeMike

Active Member
My philosophy is to invest in the electrical system. The charger is most important to me. Having adequate HV battery to recharge eBike battery over a long distance is second in priority. Many related software features are also important, like Battery Hold or to control when engine is automatically started by DC-to-DC converter when battery is low, to avoid carbon monoxide poisoning at night.

I can make a case for the RAV4 Prime, but not the 2021 Sienna, for my purposes.
 

BikeMike

Active Member
I intended the previous post to be my concluding remarks. However, i finally realized how to accurately express my intentions.

I consider hybrids and conventional Internal Combustion Engines (ICE) to be the same type of vehicle. I differentiate ICE vehicles by their low (12VDC) or high (300VDC) voltage electrical system. I further distinguish vehicles by their geared or continuously variable transmission (CVT) system. Most people refer to ICE vehicles with high voltage and CVT systems as "hybrids", which leads to unclear thinking. Unclear thinking leads to highly compromised decisions.

I have requirements for the ICE that are separate from electrical system. I have electrical system requirements that are separate from the ICE. Merging the two distinctions results in blurred thinking.

ICE Requirements and Assumptions
  1. Impending solid state battery technology ensures trade in within five years, regardless of vehicle type.
  2. Meets CA or OR state laws.
    1. Some cars are only available in states other than CO.
  3. Reliable company backed by solid warranty.
  4. AWD
  5. Tow hitch compatible. I intend to permanently attach a bike rack.
  6. Not a luxury or sedan.
  7. V6 preferred, but not essential

High Voltage Requirements and Assumptions

  1. No car currently meets requirements, except Outlander that fails ICE requirements.
    1. Forces highly compromised decision.
  2. CVT or Split Power
    1. Not serial architecture that has one giant electric motor to supply all power under 45mph, e.g., Honda.
  3. Permits electrical generation from idle (e.g., not Kia)
  4. DC fast charging to 80% in 30 minutes (e.g., not Toyota RAV4 Prime)
  5. 110VAC outlet, 1500W inverter
  6. At least 10kWh battery (e.g., not 2021 Toyota Sienna)
    1. Use a complementary mechanical bike (Salza Cutthroat) to compensate for Sienna low battery capacity.
    2. Decouple Specialized Creo motor to relax electrical requirements
  7. Has software features
    1. Battery Hold or Save
    2. Control automatic engine start to charge battery to prevent carbon monoxide poisoning when sleeping or napping

I don't have a car that meets my specifications. Waiting for solid state battery technology is my best course of action.​
 
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Marci jo

Well-Known Member
BikeMike,
You have pages and pages of car comments.
What does any of it have to do with ebikes?
Are you thinking of purchasing an ebike?
 

BikeMike

Active Member
BikeMike,
You have pages and pages of car comments.
What does any of it have to do with ebikes?
Are you thinking of purchasing an ebike?
If you read prior posts, your questions will be answered. The "eBike" i am interested in is a Specialized Creo Evo, which are currently sold out in USA. I want to ride the Tour Divide from Canada to Mexico. I need a car with 110VAC inverter to recharge the battery in the Rockies wilderness.

I would refer to the Creo as a "hybrid", rather than an eBike. The motor frictionlessly decouples from the drive train. I plan to ride the bike without electrical power, except when going uphill, facing headwinds or accelerating. My goal is 200 miles per day, averaging 22mph. For example, Grand Teton NP, WY to Steamboat Springs, CO Tour Divide leg will take two days. It's closer to racing than touring. So, a support vehicle is an integral part, like cars in Tour de France.
 
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BikeMike

Active Member
I have a friend who has one of these, it's very nice and you can fit 38s in it. https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/domane-plus-lt/

Buy a second battery and have your sag driver charge it up somewhere during the day.

A gravel bike is a bit underbiked for the TD IMO, but whatever floats your boat.
Certainly underbiked. I like the removeable battery in the Domaine. The Creo main battery is practically fixed. The Domaine is easier to recharge and lighter when a battery is unnecessary. I will test ride a Domaine.

I have tubless tires in my Specialized Diverge. Adjusting tire pressure compensates somewhat. I find the right amount of flex is most significant. I am eager to compare the flex in the Domaine and Creo. I find my arms and legs make for good shock absorbers. Always a set of tradeoffs. A few bikes would be ideal to cover the range of conditions.
 

Nutella

Active Member
Maybe a few pairs of rims with different tires will provide enough flexibility to deal with the wide variety of conditions?

Depends, although that is a solution I use on several bikes. A wheelset with 32s for mostly road and a little dirt, and another with 42s for the inverse for example. You could do the same with an emtb hardtail with a rigid front fork and have a wider tire parameters, but I'm not aware of an e gravel that can fit tires that large. You could manage on dirt roads ok, although some are supposed to be pretty nasty, but once you get into single track, you'd struggle in rocky sections. I'm sure it's been done, but it wouldn't be my choice for that exact route. You could likely modify the route to suit your bike though.
 

BikeMike

Active Member
Depends, although that is a solution I use on several bikes. A wheelset with 32s for mostly road and a little dirt, and another with 42s for the inverse for example. You could do the same with an emtb hardtail with a rigid front fork and have a wider tire parameters, but I'm not aware of an e gravel that can fit tires that large. You could manage on dirt roads ok, although some are supposed to be pretty nasty, but once you get into single track, you'd struggle in rocky sections. I'm sure it's been done, but it wouldn't be my choice for that exact route. You could likely modify the route to suit your bike though.
I forget what combination of rim and tire yields greatest air volume. Tire clearance is a crucial factor. I think the bike can be tweaked to cover a surprising amount of overlap. I will have to think about this carefully. The car causes me most concern.

We tested the gravel-oriented Turbo Creo SL Expert EVO. This shares the Fact 11R carbon frame/fork of its pavement siblings as well as those bikes’ Roval carbon C 38 wheels. On the EVO, these wheels come shod with Specialized Pathfinder Pro 2Bliss 38-millimeter-wide tires.
Also shared with the other Creos is electronic Di2 shifting with a 1-by drivetrain. The EVO uses an XT rear derailleur with an 11-42T cassette. But the EVO differs in handlebar and seatpost spec with flared Specialized Adventure Gear bars and an X-Fusion Manic dropper post with 50 millimeters of get-down for more control on technical downhills.
Future Shock Creo EVO
The Future Shock front suspension built into the steerer tube does a surprisingly good job of isolating small bumps from the cockpit.Jeff Allen
All Creos interestingly share the Future Shock front suspension. Built into the steerer tube, Future Shock effectively suspends the bars to isolate bumps and vibration from the rider’s arms with 20 millimeters of travel and a wide range of adjustability.
 

BikeMike

Active Member
Depends, although that is a solution I use on several bikes. A wheelset with 32s for mostly road and a little dirt, and another with 42s for the inverse for example. You could do the same with an emtb hardtail with a rigid front fork and have a wider tire parameters, but I'm not aware of an e gravel that can fit tires that large. You could manage on dirt roads ok, although some are supposed to be pretty nasty, but once you get into single track, you'd struggle in rocky sections. I'm sure it's been done, but it wouldn't be my choice for that exact route. You could likely modify the route to suit your bike though.
I tend to get out of the saddle at every opportunity. When going downhill on a full suspension bike or uphill on a road bike. I like to feel the pressure of my foot on the pedals. I like to feel the tires.
 

BikeMike

Active Member
Depends, although that is a solution I use on several bikes. A wheelset with 32s for mostly road and a little dirt, and another with 42s for the inverse for example. You could do the same with an emtb hardtail with a rigid front fork and have a wider tire parameters, but I'm not aware of an e gravel that can fit tires that large. You could manage on dirt roads ok, although some are supposed to be pretty nasty, but once you get into single track, you'd struggle in rocky sections. I'm sure it's been done, but it wouldn't be my choice for that exact route. You could likely modify the route to suit your bike though.
I find small amounts of adjustments are much better than larger amounts for bikes. Minimal adjustments generally makes me happiest. Just about any bike can be made to perform some task. The question is how to optimize under certain circumstances. The answer probably lies in inner rim width. I forgot the exact inner rim width on Creo. I'm guessing 25mm? Anyhow, it was ideal.
 
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BikeMike

Active Member
Depends, although that is a solution I use on several bikes. A wheelset with 32s for mostly road and a little dirt, and another with 42s for the inverse for example. You could do the same with an emtb hardtail with a rigid front fork and have a wider tire parameters, but I'm not aware of an e gravel that can fit tires that large. You could manage on dirt roads ok, although some are supposed to be pretty nasty, but once you get into single track, you'd struggle in rocky sections. I'm sure it's been done, but it wouldn't be my choice for that exact route. You could likely modify the route to suit your bike though.


Specialized’s Turbo Creo SL Expert Evo is an e-bike that does damn near everything well, and it’s poised to change cycling forever.

The spec is a little strange. It’s slightly more road-centric than I feel a dedicated gravel bike should be (I’ll get deeper into that in the review section, below). But the biggest head-scratcher is the 38mm Pathfinder Pro rubber — it’s far too asphalt-focused for my liking. You have a smooth center for faster rolling on pavement, but for the dedicated gravel bike in Specialized’s Creo lineup, I wanted more grip, especially on the boneyard-bumps and washboard that most gravel rides feature. Luckily there’s room on the 700c rims that come with the Evo for a higher volume, 42mm tire with lots more cornering knob. For bikepacking, you could swap to a smaller, 27.5-inch rim and run up to two-inch-wide (50mm) tires.
 

BikeMike

Active Member
Depends, although that is a solution I use on several bikes. A wheelset with 32s for mostly road and a little dirt, and another with 42s for the inverse for example. You could do the same with an emtb hardtail with a rigid front fork and have a wider tire parameters, but I'm not aware of an e gravel that can fit tires that large. You could manage on dirt roads ok, although some are supposed to be pretty nasty, but once you get into single track, you'd struggle in rocky sections. I'm sure it's been done, but it wouldn't be my choice for that exact route. You could likely modify the route to suit your bike though.

The Turbo Creo SL EVO, and its gravel-ready builds, will take you off the beaten track farther and faster than you ... the Turbo Creo SL was created to make the most of 650b wheels too, with room for massive 47mm tires.



The Specialized site is down. Finding the inner rim width is difficult now. I deliberately checked for tire width range. I remember it was ideal. Right in the middle of the tires i wanted to use.

It uses Boost hubs, so it is in the mountain bike hub range. As I remember, the motor is a little wider than most Q factors, so they use Boost.
 
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BikeMike

Active Member
The inner rim with is 20mm


I bold faced the features that appealed to me. The specifications read more like a mountain bike than a road bike.


TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
FRAMESET
FRAMEFACT 11r carbon, Open Road Geometry, front/rear thru-axles, fully integrated down tube battery, internal cable routing, fender/rack mounts, Boost™ 12x148mm
FORKFuture Shock 2.0 w/ Smooth Boot, Boost™ 12x110mmmm thru-axle, flat-mount disc
SEAT BINDERAlloy, 30.8mm
COCKPIT
STEMFuture Stem, Pro
HANDLEBARSSpecialized Adventure Gear Hover, 103mm drop x 70mm reach x 12º flare
GRIPSRoubaix S-Wrap
SADDLEBody Geometry Power Sport, hollow Cr-Mo rails
SEATPOSTX-Fusion Manic Dropper Seat Post, 50mm of travel
BRAKES
FRONT BRAKEShimano GRX 810 hydraulic disc
REAR BRAKEShimano GRX 810 hydraulic disc
DRIVETRAIN
REAR DERAILLEURShimano RX812 GX, Shadow Plus, 11-speed
SHIFT LEVERSShimano GRX 810 hydraulic brake levers, mechanical shifting
CASSETTESunrace, 11-speed, alloy spider, 11-42t
CHAINShimano HG601, 11spd
CRANKSETPraxis, Forged alloy M30, custom offset
CHAINRINGSPraxis, 46T, 110BCD
WHEELS
FRONT TIREPathfinder Pro 2Bliss Ready, 700x38mm
REAR TIREPathfinder Pro 2Bliss Ready, 700x38mm
INNER TUBESPresta valve, 48mm
FRONT WHEELDT R470 Boost, 12x110mm
REAR WHEELDT R470 Boost, 12x148mm
E-BIKE
MOTORSpecialized SL 1.1, custom lightweight motor
UI/REMOTESpecialized TCU, 10-LED State of charge, 3-LED Ride Mode display, ANT+/Bluetooth®
BATTERYSpecialized SL1-320, fully integrated, 320Wh
CHARGERCustom charger, 48V System w/ SL system charger plug
WIRING HARNESSCustom Specialized wiring harness w/ chargeport
* Specifications are subject to change without notice
 
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