How big a market for step through?

FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
For those of us who are inseam challenged, this is a very relevant topic.
For data, check the occurrence over time data for "step-through," "mixtie," and other variations in Google search.
I agree with the prior comments on your personal increase in queries, e.g. aging ideal customer cohort, COVID, etc.
In addition, your brand awareness is growing, so you will also intersect more of that ideal customer's research.
RE: battery
I suggest an integrated downtube 21700 and a secondary 21700 pack in the mid-station of an ST-ish mid-tail frame.
That enables high amp-hour capacity and good low central mass.
The mid-station can be used for shopping and other cargo when you don't need the extra range.
Lots of "low barrier to entry" urban, trekking, touring, and expedition capabilities in that form factor.

Welcome to EBR ... thanks for posting. ;)
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
RE: battery

I suggest an integrated downtube 21700 and a secondary 21700 pack in the mid station of an ST-ish mid-tail frame.

That enables high amp-hour capacity and good low central mass.

The mid station can be used for shopping and other cargo when you don't need the extra range.
Can you show me a picture of the secondary pack please ? Or draw something so I can understand this better.

Thanks
 

ROCebike

Member
For those of us who are inseam challenged, this is a very relevant topic.


For data, check the occurence over time data for "step through," "mixtie," and other variations in Google search.


I agree with the prior comments on your personal increase in queries, e.g. aging ideal customer cohort, COVID, etc.

In addition, your brand awareness is growing, so you will also intersect more of that ideal customer's research.



RE: battery

I suggest an integrated downtube 21700 and a secondary 21700 pack in the mid station of an ST-ish mid-tail frame.

That enables high amp-hour capacity and good low central mass.

The mid station can be used for shopping and other cargo when you don't need the extra range.

Lots of "low barrier to entry" urban, trekking, touring, and expedition capabilities in that form factor.
One more thought, I saw an earlier mention but wanted to emphasize it. speed shakes on ST bikes.
A class 3 ST loaded with batteries and gear and rider is going to have a high risk of wobble as speed increases.
ISO 4210 basically only tests for frame fatigue and impact forces. Anyway to build a test device for frame flex at speed?
 

JPT

New Member
Can you show me a picture of the secondary pack please ? Or draw something so I can understand this better.

Thanks

Here's what an initial sizing prototype looks like on a test mule Salsa Blackbarow mid-tail frame.


This is a 72 cell 21700 pack form factor. The test pack for this position will be 5p14s.


For my design goals and use case, the mid-tail form factor is the best current form factor that I am aware of among available framesets.

One of the reasons I like the mid-tail is that the mid station area has plenty of space for a good size pack along with controllers, DC-DC converters, trackers, etc.


Apologies for taking this thread tangentially into mid-tails when the point is step throughs.

However, after I test systems, form factors, etc. on the test frames, my goal is a couple of custom frame expedition bikes for us that will be something that accommodates my, um, inseam-challenged stature with very low stepover while providing as much stiffness as possible.

So, even though this test mule isn't a step through, it is on the path that should lead to an ST-ish bike in the end.


Please note that I'm only building these prototypes and eventual custom frames because you don't currently offer an expedition model 😊

2020-07-03-Pixel 3 XL-34-2400.jpg
2020-07-03-Pixel 3 XL-35-2400.jpg
 

Audiotom

New Member
Pushkar

What ae your insights on the stability of the step thru vs standard frame at 30 mph?

I could see needing it for little bursts of speed in traffic or just all out fun
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
Pushkar

What ae your insights on the stability of the step thru vs standard frame at 30 mph?

I could see needing it for little bursts of speed in traffic or just all out fun

I haven't tested the step-through yet but the modeling shows that every frame has some flex. Here are a few observations

1. Larger chainstay length (how far is the rear wheel from the cranks) means more flex. So 2 bikes, same style, the one with longer chainstay will feel more "flex".

2. Rear suspension will have more flex than a hard tail bike. If someone disagrees with that then it is not worth arguing with them.

3. Titanium has more flex than Aluminum.

Completely anecdotal opinion - For vast majority of riders, they will not perceive a lot of flex with the bikes that are being built today. Unless someone is really cheaping out on components, the bikes are built tough enough.

All that being said, step through tends to be a little heavier (over built to reduce flex). Will there be *some* flex on step-through ? I would assume so. Will it be terrible? No. All bikes have to pass frame integrity test (EN / ASTM etc). Further we also have to check specifically the chainstay flex before our bikes get certified for Rohloff + belt... (long story).

So - net net - the step through, even though they are over built and a tad heavier, may have some flex. However that should not be a deal breaker since frames have to be certified by multiple parties before they see light of day - including certification by some component manufacturers!


Please let me know if this helps.
 

MarkF

Active Member
ST are mostly purchased by elderly who don't want to swing there leg up high. ST are not down hill bombers nor are they going to be ridding that way. I have a Raleigh retroglide ST and I had it up to 30 mph down a long steep hill and I never felt like the bike was unstable. Today's ebikes look to be better built and frame flex is not anywhere near what it once was.
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
@pushkar

You need to see this, this is a brand new Ebike under development by DOST Ebikes, it's not out yet, this is a screen shot from EBR visiting their Canadian headquarters in BC.
This picture was on the owners desk.
They are calling it a Riese & Muller killer !

A full suspension step through o_O

The Fate.png


This could be the wave of the future, the owner Sam seems to know his stuff.
 

pennybags

Active Member
Hmm. This is the 2018 frame Available on Alibaba. This was red frame.

I’m glad they are looking at it, but in reality that’s a long way away from R&M.

I can’t seem to find the frame any more on Alibaba but I’m positive I’ve seen this before.

Good for them For trying to bring it back. Hopefully they can make it better than the weird welding of the rear rack. Hopefully they can improve the geometry.
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
Hmm. This is the 2018 frame Available on Alibaba. This was red frame.

I’m glad they are looking at it, but in reality that’s a long way away from R&M.

I can’t seem to find the frame any more on Alibaba but I’m positive I’ve seen this before.

Good for them For trying to bring it back. Hopefully they can make it better than the weird welding of the rear rack. Hopefully they can improve the geometry.

They are basically saying we can do a R & M style bike with a throttle with more power for half the price....in North America that would have value to a lot of potential customers.
 

pennybags

Active Member
Found it - $1700.




1594684272832.png
 

pennybags

Active Member
@Ebiker33 This definitely seems like the bike shown in Dost bikes picture. I am not convinced this is in any way an R&M killer, not as it stands right now atleast.
May be dost will sell this for 4.5k ... ha ha ...

May be if Dost says "after a lot of research over many year, we have an RM killer. Introducing the Dost Fubo, the first dual suspension step through"

I am sure the reviewer will go .. "Oh wow.. that's an RM killer for sure.. and oh.. it has a throttle? Wow.. and what price? Oh.. only $4500 - that's half the price of RM. How did you guys do that? " ...pan to a smiling founder somewhere.

I absolutely think a re-badged version of this will absolutely sell like bonkers. People will buy it since it is "dual suspension" ...
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
@Ebiker33 This definitely seems like the bike shown in Dost bikes picture. I am not convinced this is in any way an R&M killer, not as it stands right now atleast.
May be dost will sell this for 4.5k ... ha ha ...

May be if Dost says "after a lot of research over many year, we have an RM killer. Introducing the Dost Fubo, the first dual suspension step through"

I am sure the reviewer will go .. "Oh wow.. that's an RM killer for sure.. and oh.. it has a throttle? Wow.. and what price? Oh.. only $4500 - that's half the price of RM. How did you guys do that? " ...pan to a smiling founder somewhere.

I absolutely think a re-badged version of this will absolutely sell like bonkers. People will buy it since it is "dual suspension" ...

There going to call it the "The Fate" it's suppose to be ready 2021 Q1.
I baited Sam/DOST to post more, but they never posted on my thread over there, they are holding their cards tight to the chest on this one.
Perhaps for good reason, if they pull off what you just posted, they could be on the leading edge of Ebike trends for 2021.

They should be more like Pushkar super open about what is coming within 6 months. :D
 

pennybags

Active Member
There going to call it the "The Fate" it's suppose to be ready 2021 Q1.
I baited Sam/DOST to post more, but they never posted on my thread over there, they are holding their cards tight to the chest on this one.
Perhaps for good reason, if they pull off what you just posted, they could be on the leading edge of Ebike trends for 2021.

They should be more like Pushkar super open about what is coming within 6 months. :D
Well good luck to them. It’s going to take a while to get a good step through with full suspension. More choice for everyone - even if it starts with BBSO2 from 2012.