How do you run electric motor with Just the Thomb Throttle WITHOUT the Speed Gears?

noobz

New Member
I have new voltage controller and a thumb throttle for my electric scooter.


I got the thumb throttle unit to switch on and off with voltage being displayed successfully. But I get no response to the throttle, thus the motor fails to turn.
My throttle wires from the thumb throttle are connected to the throttle wires on the controller.
The "3 Speed Gears" or "Shift 3 Speed Gears" wires on the controller are not connected. There is no where for me to connect this to, as the thumb throttle has only 5 wires (3 wires: Black, Red, Green. 1 wire for electric lock line, 1 wire for battery +). Is this why I am not able to tell the controller to spin the wheel?

Thumb Throttle Wires.PNG


Here is the wires from the controller
H76917256a8ef42b48ca01bf6465cbfefF.jpg



Here is the video of describing my problem


I don't think it has anything to do with power input/output rating on the controller that's preventing it from getting power to the wheel as I have tried this on another controller that is less power (60V 45amp) and have the same result. The only one that works is my original voltage controller and throttle display that came with my scooter. What am I doing wrong here... any ideas?
 
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AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
You are aware that the controller phase and hall sensor wires must be properly matched (in the correct order) to the motor wires if it's going to work?

Noteworthy is that during this conversion process, there is NO assurance that the color of the wires (phase wires, hall wires, or throttle wires) are going to match one side vs. the other!

My point is, you COULD have the throttle wired correctly, but if the phase and sensor wires are incorrect, you would have the problem you have now. BOTH sets of wires (motor AND throttle) must be correct for the motor to respond to the throttle.

This is a pretty daunting project to get working correctly for the inexperienced.

Because I'm not familiar with controllers that use them, my first thought would be regarding the "self learning" wires. Are they "learning" to match the phase and hall sensor wires? If so, how do you do a "reset" if not working?
 

noobz

New Member
You are aware that the controller phase and hall sensor wires must be properly matched (in the correct order) to the motor wires if it's going to work?

Noteworthy is that during this conversion process, there is NO assurance that the color of the wires (phase wires, hall wires, or throttle wires) are going to match one side vs. the other!

My point is, you COULD have the throttle wired correctly, but if the phase and sensor wires are incorrect, you would have the problem you have now. BOTH sets of wires (motor AND throttle) must be correct for the motor to respond to the throttle.

This is a pretty daunting project to get working correctly for the inexperienced.

Because I'm not familiar with controllers that use them, my first thought would be regarding the "self learning" wires. Are they "learning" to match the phase and hall sensor wires? If so, how do you do a "reset" if not working?
Thanks for the reply. Yeah I don't know if the wires on the phase connector and hall sensor actually match. I tried all combinations of phase wires I could think of and tried connecting them but made no difference. The only thing I did not test was the hall sensor wires as I'm not ready to test out all combinations for that. If I have energy to do all that I would just get a new scooter... :Dcause I'm tired as heck. I thought hall sensor wires don't have to be connected for the motor to run... The other controller I tested (the 45 amp one) does not have hall sensor wires. My original controller has hall sensor wires.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
There are 2 types of controllers. One is sensorless, and does not use hall sensors. The other is sensored, and does use sensors. If the controller has sensor wires, generally they need to be connected.

Noteworthy is that the sensor wires are generally wired using the same color combination the phase wires use.
 

noobz

New Member
Thank you for the info, AHicks. I am giving up on this new controller... it just isn't working. The reason why I got this is cause one of my controllers AND a front motor (dual motor electric scooter) died several months ago.

I am gonna order a 2800w motor for the front, and THIS one... That way, the throttle display will work with the controller, LOL.
I am not sure if my recently-purchased key lock thumb throttle (see above) will work... Or do I need to buy another key lock switch? Which one, THIS one or THIS one? I really am not sure what to do. I am planning to run two controllers and two throttles independently.
 

harryS

Well-Known Member
I own a controller with self learning. Instructions were to power it up with the learning wires connected. The motor should spin biriefly. Then unplug the wires, and the controller remembers the settings it learned. It worked for me, and two years later, the controller still remembers. What I haven't done is to switch the halls and see if the controller can adapt for that,
 

noobz

New Member
I own a controller with self learning. Instructions were to power it up with the learning wires connected. The motor should spin biriefly. Then unplug the wires, and the controller remembers the settings it learned. It worked for me, and two years later, the controller still remembers. What I haven't done is to switch the halls and see if the controller can adapt for that,
Thanks for the reply. Yeah I've done that already but no workie. The wheel doesn't even turn briefly... It jerks for a micro-second and it quits.. I have already order the motor today... the controller and throttle display will be ordered at later time.
 

noobz

New Member
Ok I ordered a new controller and display throttle as a set from the seller - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957915561.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.2.483474d488jJf5
And the 2800w motor for the front is on the way...(ordered it last week) I don't know how long it will take. Hope all this works this time.. I don't want to mess around with the wiring I just want "Plug-N-Play" and assurance of compatibility. I checked with the seller first if this controller set is compatible with the motor I bought and he said yes. I also ordered a Key Lock Switch... he said it will work with or without it.

It's a HUGE controller, with 24 mosfets! Probably the most space is taken by the heatsink cooling system. It will have to be mounted on the side of my scooter. It's 7.5 cm thick and 25 cm long!
 

noobz

New Member
OK, I was hoping that this time it would work since I'm getting the whole thing as a combo set from the same seller. Wrong.
Got the new controller and throttle display... and key lock switch from the same seller.
The connection was simple. The throttle display has a plug with 5 wires. It connects to the controller for the 5 wire plug. 3 phase connectors connected. Hall Sensor connected. At first try POWER CAME ON and throttle WORKS! I got excited and took the scooter out for a test ride.. From 0- 8 mph it runs rough. There is roughness/vibration/noise. The vibration/roughness goes away as I accelerate to higher speed. I rode for good 5 miles at speeds of 30s and 40's mph.
Day 2: I went out to test ride again. Upon pressing the throttle it tries to accelerate till about 5 or 7 mph and I feel very roughness/distortion (kind of similar to what I experienced on day 1) and it SLOWS DOWN on its own and come to a full stop. Doesn't matter how much I pull the throttle trigger. I could not ride the scooter therefore. Error codes shows E 07. That's the motor.

But the motor is not broke cause it works fine with my original controller. I tried disconnecting the Hall Sensor cable just for the heck of it. Pulled the throttle trigger and it gets power! Wheel turns and accelerates as if the Hall Sensor cable was connected, or not needing it? Error code still shows E 07 on the display. I took it outside for a run and same problem, it starts up roughly and quits after 5 mph of acceleration.

I did look through the P settings in the throttle display but I can't seem to find anything that would have anything to fix this problem. I am inclining to believe it's the hardware configuration or cabling? Perhaps phase connectors? So tried the following:

Blue Yellow
Yellow Blue
Green Green This combination turns my wheel in reverse. Error code still shows E 07.

Blue Yellow
Yellow Green
Green Blue This combination puts my wheel back to forward. Error code still shows E 07.

Hall Sensor cable being connected or not does not make a difference. That error codes doesn't go away and I have same problem, can't ride..

I really don't wanna try all different combinations. It's just too much for me. I sent a message with my problem to the seller on chat tonight. Waiting to receive reply.. usually takes a day or two.

I am really tired guys. This is my third controller and none of them seem to work. I'm still waiting to receive my front motor... In total I spent good $550 for a broken scooter and no result....
 

noobz

New Member
I don't understand it.. Why does motor spins fine up to 55 some mph in the air setup on a bench but can't accelerate past 5~ 7 mph and stops immediately when I take it outside and ride it? I tested is repeatedly with same result. I'm gonna have to wait till the front motor arrives.. I will use that to test with this controller.
 

noobz

New Member
Ok good news, here is the video explaining how I got the scooter working.

To sum it up:
The new controller did not work right with my rear 2800w motor. There appears to be compatibility problem, and it led to motor failure. So, both (front and back) motors are bad. It worked at the first try, but the motor ran very rough, with vibration and bad motor sound when it starts accelerating. The vibration and noise went away as it picked up speed. But next day it refused to work and threw out an error code E07 on the throttle display indicating it's the motor. Great. So I had non-working scooter. Today I received the new motor I was waiting for. To my surprise the controller WORKS with this new motor. No vibration no roughness and sound. It runs smoothly and the error code disappeared. Strange, my old motors are same type 2800w for scooters. The model/serial number on the motor is different though. It must be a newer batch, I am guessing. But the weird thing is that my old brake disk does not fit on this motor, the holes don't line up! I would've thought they use universal standard size for mounting disk brakes on these motors. It's not. So moved the new motor to the back, and my old bad motor to the front and use the brake on the front instead. No brake on the rear. I will have to ride my scooter carefully as I have half of braking power now until I get a new replacement for the brake disk that fits on the new motor.

I checked with the seller and found out that my controller is fixed at 65A because I didn't specifically ask for full 73A before ordering. 65A is enough for me I'm not gonna complain.

Project #2 is to use my old controller as a secondary controller to feed power to the front, so that I have power on both front and back wheels for maximum power of 7700 watts.

Project #3 is the battery build for very high current discharge and longevity. This will take advantage of full power out of both of my controllers and deliver more stable throughput. I will be using high performance Samsung 21700 Li-Ion batteries for this project. It may take a long while before I get to it as this is pretty costly project.

The only thing I haven't yet figured out is how to install a Key Lock Switch on my controller? There is no wire plug that fits.. Right now my throttle display power button is the ignition to start my scooter. It will be chain locked, but I would like to have a key lock switch for security.

Pheobus Key Lock Switch.PNG
Phobeus 24 Mosfet Controller Wiring Labels.jpg

d00kg7s
 
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J.R.

Well-Known Member
About 70% of a bike's stopping power is in the front brake, but that bike has a lot of power and speed, you need both brakes. Be careful and good luck with the project. Looking at your video, that is crazy fast!
 

noobz

New Member
About 70% of a bike's stopping power is in the front brake, but that bike has a lot of power and speed, you need both brakes. Be careful and good luck with the project. Looking at your video, that is crazy fast!
Thanks for the confirmation on the brake power on the front. Yeah I will set to lower gears for slower speed to keep it under 35 mph.. Yeah just imagine once I get both controllers and motors working.. not only will I get my power back but will be more! The brake disk has been ordered. I hope they ship it fast....from China. 😀
 

noobz

New Member
OK, I did some extensive testing on this controller by riding my scooter to work and back home for two days. . Both in calm and windy conditions.
It does have more power (torque) in the low to mid end, about 10% better than my original 50A controller. Taking off from dig is better too. But in the top end it's not any faster than my original controller.... I used to get to 49- 50 mph (GPS) in a nice long slight uphill with my original single controller. With this new controller it tops out at 47 mph (GPS)... couldn't go any faster than that. I would've thought it would go faster because it has more amperage (65A vs 50A).. Something is holding it back. I think the controller has some sort of speed limiting... Or something to do with my throttle display? I kinda doubt that. The P settings have already been tweaked, no difference in top speed.

And the throttle control is VERY rough in this new setup... It's hard to cruise at constant speed without jerking so much. The controller cuts power until it drops 3 mph and accelerates back up. It doesn't matter if I press the throttle more as the power just cuts off and back on so the scooter keeps rocking back and forth. In order to stop the rocking I have to press the throttle all the way. That's no good. I got very tired riding it... My original controller with MS668 throttle display is silky smooth.

Hopefully when I add my original controller for full power it should reduce that jerking/rocking to minimal...as the original controller will be doing the half of job. With both controllers installed, in theory, should have enough horsepower and torque to get to 54- 55 mph that I used to get when my scooter was new (dual 50A) before it failed on me. It has been a long wait, downtime has been 7 months. And I don't have money to buy another motor. I will have to save, to order it. And then it will take another month or month and half to receive it. Once all gets done I should be pretty happy getting that power back.
 
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noobz

New Member
I think my test comparison was a bit unfair.. the top speed I got from my old controller (50A) gave me 50~ 51 mph GPS was in a nice warm weather, but the 47 mph runs I got on the new controller (65A) was done in colder windy weather. I tried the test runs again in the last several days as weather has gotten warmer and got about 50 mph. I am OK with that. The difference in acceleration is a real threat though, especially the low to mid end torque. It's about 15% better than the old controller.

UPDATE: The brake disk I received from the same seller that sent me a new motor don't fit as well. The holes on the motor are farther apart than the holes on the brake disk... As a matter of fact the new disk is exactly the same as my old disk that came with my scooter originally. I just sent a message to the seller in Aliexpress about it. Waiting to receive solution.
 

noobz

New Member
Ok guys, the seller confirmed that the disk he sent is indeed a mismatch to the motor he sold me so he is going to send me a replacement that will fit. I already ordered another 2800w motor, a brake disk, and two sets of brake pads from the same seller. He will include the replacement disk in the same package all in one box.
Weeeheeee! I will get full power once I get both motors working! Even more power to than my original scooter. The 65A controller will feed power to my rear motor, 50A controller for the front. This will make Rear Wheel Biased sports car...☺️ And I will be able to control the throttle input independently. This will be great for cornering and stability control in tricky road conditions. Once all things go well as planned I will record a video (headcam) testing the acceleration and top speed. I have a long stretched proving ground closed course right by where I live. Stay tuned..