How does Ride1Up Produce Better Ebikes with less cost and effort than established rivals (eg Juiced)?

Asher

Well-Known Member
I've been following ebikes for a couple years now and I still have a very limited understanding of the manufacturing and logistics side of things, which doesn't get discussed nearly as much as the bikes themselves.

Consider Juiced. It has its own factory, it's been at it for a decade or so, the founder spends tons of time in China sourcing, designing, testing. But Juiced bikes and batteries sell for more, appear to have more QC issues (though hard to definitively say), on older models lack the finish and finesse of Ride1Up bikes, with the exception of the torque sensor on the LMTD which is very new anyhow. In short, Juiced puts a lot of effort in for a product that seems worse and costs more, the slightly higher 52 voltage aside.

Is vertical integration overrated? Does using open mold frames and batteries like Ride1Up does more efficient at the scale these brands are selling at? What's the point of putting in all that effort if the value isn't there? Perhaps Juiced is cashing in its chips a little, and coasting on its name for everything but the latest model (the Scorpion). Plus, until recently, Ride1Up was chronically sold out and Juiced wasn't, so Juiced had an effective convenience premium.

It just seems bizarre that R1 can show up and offer a more compelling product for its segment than really anything else out there stateside (Class 3 hub drive commuter under ~$2500, esp under $1800).

I see a lot of tech/biz bros talking up vertical integration but given the struggles of brands like Vanmoof and the absence of price savings there, this sounds more like a hustle for venture capital than an accurate description of affairs. Plus, the bike and car industry have been around for 100 years and they still extensively rely on an ecosystem of third party suppliers.


Maybe @Mike's E-Bikes or @Ravi Kempaiah could answer this well.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Hey @Asher ,

Have you ridden this brand bikes?
What was your experience?

On what basis do you say it is better? From the spec sheet or ride experience?
 

Asher

Well-Known Member
Hey @Asher ,

Have you ridden this brand bikes?
What was your experience?

On what basis do you say it is better? From the spec sheet or ride experience?

I haven't, I'm going off feedback I've seen for both brands. The fit and finish appears better with R.

I don't think it's anything hard to overcome, especially for Juiced, but Juiced doesn't put a lot of effort into updating it's bikes and seems to have neglected it's commuter models beyond upgrading them to 52V. And it's been dogged by QC issues for years, in a way that R doesn't appear to be.
 

CarlB

Member
Hard to tell what you are comparing. Maybe if you mentioned the specific models for each brand it would be easier to answer your question.

One thing that might explain some of it: Batteries and motors are expensive. It appears, for their current models, R's largest standard-with-bike battery 48v x 14ah = 672wh is smaller than J's smallest 52v x 13ah =676wh. All but R's top line bike have 500w motors. R's top line is 750w. J's start at 750w and go up.

I'm getting this from the compare pages.

 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
I've been following ebikes for a couple years now and I still have a very limited understanding of the manufacturing and logistics side of things, which doesn't get discussed nearly as much as the bikes themselves.

Consider Juiced. It has its own factory, it's been at it for a decade or so, the founder spends tons of time in China sourcing, designing, testing. But Juiced bikes and batteries sell for more, appear to have more QC issues (though hard to definitively say), on older models lack the finish and finesse of Ride1Up bikes, with the exception of the torque sensor on the LMTD which is very new anyhow. In short, Juiced puts a lot of effort in for a product that seems worse and costs more, the slightly higher 52 voltage aside.

Is vertical integration overrated? Does using open mold frames and batteries like Ride1Up does more efficient at the scale these brands are selling at? What's the point of putting in all that effort if the value isn't there? Perhaps Juiced is cashing in its chips a little, and coasting on its name for everything but the latest model (the Scorpion). Plus, until recently, Ride1Up was chronically sold out and Juiced wasn't, so Juiced had an effective convenience premium.

It just seems bizarre that R1 can show up and offer a more compelling product for its segment than really anything else out there stateside (Class 3 hub drive commuter under ~$2500, esp under $1800).

I see a lot of tech/biz bros talking up vertical integration but given the struggles of brands like Vanmoof and the absence of price savings there, this sounds more like a hustle for venture capital than an accurate description of affairs. Plus, the bike and car industry have been around for 100 years and they still extensively rely on an ecosystem of third party suppliers.


Maybe @Mike's E-Bikes or @Ravi Kempaiah could answer this well.
No they don't.
Juiced is Luyuan Bikes.

It's a re-badged Luyuan. If you want to start your own ebike company and offer the same (or similar) bikes, just contact Luyuan.

This is exactly what Bam Power did with the Rad Power. (Which resulted in lawsuit due to similar branding/marketing and wesbites)
My guess is they just contacted Jiangsu Kuake and without thinking anything, they offered exact same thing as Rad Power.

Amego Elevate, Magnum Peak and NCM Moscow are the same thing as well.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
I haven't, I'm going off feedback I've seen for both brands. The fit and finish appears better with R.

I don't think it's anything hard to overcome, especially for Juiced, but Juiced doesn't put a lot of effort into updating it's bikes and seems to have neglected it's commuter models beyond upgrading them to 52V. And it's been dogged by QC issues for years, in a way that R doesn't appear to be.
I think it's hard to speculate anything without knowing both Juiced and Ride1Up business models, which I'm sure are strictly confidential.

However what I can say is that some of the motorcycle shop owners are shaking their head how on earth Revzilla can offer such low prices, some at lower than their cost.
Same thing as every business owners, they can't figure out how on earth Walmart can offer much lower than their cost, for exact same product.

They have connections, purchasing power, ability to cut middle person, ability to cut redundant cost like storage or better transportation system, it could be anything.
 

harryS

Well-Known Member
If I remember things right, one day the guy who started ride1up posted here saying he had invested in a container full of ebikes from aliexpress.. He started selling generic ebikes for not much more than what he paid for them. People liked them, he ordered more. Price has gone a up a bit.

Buy cheap, Apply your logo. Sell for a profit. Sondors did it and he didn't have to hire tech support. His customers do it for him on Facebook.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
If I remember things right, one day the guy who started ride1up posted here saying he had invested in a container full of ebikes from aliexpress.. He started selling generic ebikes for not much more than what he paid for them. People liked them, he ordered more. Price has gone a up a bit.

Buy cheap, Apply your logo. Sell for a profit. Sondors did it and he didn't have to hire tech support. His customers do it for him on Facebook.
Did you mean Alibaba?

Alibaba is a lot cheaper than AliExpress because you typically have to order in batches. Usually in tens or hundreds of bikes.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
No they don't.
Juiced is Luyuan Bikes.

It's a re-badged Luyuan. If you want to start your own ebike company and offer the same (or similar) bikes, just contact Luyuan.


Please don't make assumptions.
Juiced has it's own factory Zhejiang for more than a year now. They worked with Luyuan only in the beginning when they had their ODK cargo bike and first iteration of Cross current bikes.
What you see in this video is their own facility. I know this for a fact because I have a friend who lives close to the factory and confirmed it. What kind of ownership does Tora, I don't know but they don't use Luyuan anymore. Working with a Chinese factory is hard. They have no regard for IP protection and will sell your bikes on Alibaba if you don't have tightly bound agreements.

 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Please don't make assumptions.
Juiced has it's own factory Zhejiang for more than a year now. They worked with Luyuan only in the beginning when they had their ODK cargo bike and first iteration of Cross current bikes.
What you see in this video is their own facility. I know this for a fact because I have a friend who lives close to the factory and confirmed it. What kind of ownership does Tora, I don't know but they don't use Luyuan anymore. Working with a Chinese factory is hard. They have no regard for IP protection and will sell your bikes on Alibaba if you don't have tightly bound agreements.

Well my Juiced CrossCurrent is Luyuan.
I have owned it for over 3 years and I know they have been manufactured in Luyuan as far as I knew.
So I thought I knew for the fact Juiced was Luyuan because I have one myself.
Didn't mean to make assumptions, I didn't know they switched the factory a year ago. :confused:

But I still think it's hard to analyze how they (Ride1Up) cut the cost.
 
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Timpo

Well-Known Member
Thiis is just a question, but why is everyone going to China to build their ebikes?

I know many people said how American ebike entrepreneurs having difficulties with Chinese factories because they don't care about contract.

Yet, Americans are willing to go back to China, fully acknowledging the risk.
This indicates that risk is well worth the return they're getting by making ebikes in China.
I'm assuming it is the cost, but if you look at Japanese ebikes, they usually start at around $1000. And Japan has well over half century of history building ebikes.

Because Panasonic bikes are made in Japan.

日本製


They build their batteries, motors in Japan as well.

The Bafang motor may be attractive but Japanese mid drive isn't bad either. Shimano, Panasonic and Yamaha have been building good motors.
Also I found that vast majority of EBR reviews are based on Chinese bikes, not Japan.

I did my research and posted the numbers of sales of Bridgestone, Yamaha and Panasonic, as far as I remember, the numbers were very high since Japan has very well established ebike market.

Japanese manufactures have very good business ethics from what I understand, so I'm just very curious why everyone is going to China.
 
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Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
this is just a question, but why is everyone going to China to build their ebikes?

Cost.

It is the same reason why you used Ali Express to purchase chargers, seatposts etc.

It is the same reason why Apple builds iPhones and MacBook's in China. The cost of labor and materials and most importantly availability of skilled labor.

Go to some of these E-bike company owners, many of them would not know how to design a simple structure on Autocad by themselves. The question of 3D solid works, Fusion 360 are way out.

I am sure many of them don't have even have product managers who do design and development. You can go to China and they have the engineers and supply chain ready and will do most of the work for you. Most of the bikes are just re-branded and sold here with minor modifications.
 

Asher

Well-Known Member
I think the R 500 and 700 are good comparisons to the Juiced CCS2. Even after adjusting for torque sensor and battery size.

Working with a Chinese factory is hard. They have no regard for IP protection and will sell your bikes on Alibaba if you don't have tightly bound agreements.


It seems like Ride and others are taking it in stride - if you don't have your own IP but source your parts well, then maybe it's not such a problem, especially if you're going after the value market. There's no 'moat' aka defensible fat profit margin, just an honest business.

It also seems like instead of getting Canyon (leading consumer direct brand) level assembly, they get decent parts and expect you to get a bike mechanic to make up for whatever deficiencies the factory workers have. I've gotten three muscle bikes by mail and all had minor assembly issues that a bike mechanic (not me) caught

Without having ridden the R bikes, it seems like a testament to an open source, modular model of assembly, where consumer value is highest.

It will be interesting to see if more value brands besides R take the Class 3 Commuter market seriously, especially if they can use an open mold frame to get to market faster.
 

cldlhd

Active Member
I've been following ebikes for a couple years now and I still have a very limited understanding of the manufacturing and logistics side of things, which doesn't get discussed nearly as much as the bikes themselves.

Consider Juiced. It has its own factory, it's been at it for a decade or so, the founder spends tons of time in China sourcing, designing, testing. But Juiced bikes and batteries sell for more, appear to have more QC issues (though hard to definitively say), on older models lack the finish and finesse of Ride1Up bikes, with the exception of the torque sensor on the LMTD which is very new anyhow. In short, Juiced puts a lot of effort in for a product that seems worse and costs more, the slightly higher 52 voltage aside.

Is vertical integration overrated? Does using open mold frames and batteries like Ride1Up does more efficient at the scale these brands are selling at? What's the point of putting in all that effort if the value isn't there? Perhaps Juiced is cashing in its chips a little, and coasting on its name for everything but the latest model (the Scorpion). Plus, until recently, Ride1Up was chronically sold out and Juiced wasn't, so Juiced had an effective convenience premium.

It just seems bizarre that R1 can show up and offer a more compelling product for its segment than really anything else out there stateside (Class 3 hub drive commuter under ~$2500, esp under $1800).

I see a lot of tech/biz bros talking up vertical integration but given the struggles of brands like Vanmoof and the absence of price savings there, this sounds more like a hustle for venture capital than an accurate description of affairs. Plus, the bike and car industry have been around for 100 years and they still extensively rely on an ecosystem of third party suppliers.


Maybe @Mike's E-Bikes or @Ravi Kempaiah could answer this well.
Tesla fans are going to rabidly defend "vertical integration" .....
 

BET

Active Member
I think the R 500 and 700 are good comparisons to the Juiced CCS2. Even after adjusting for torque sensor and battery size.



It seems like Ride and others are taking it in stride - if you don't have your own IP but source your parts well, then maybe it's not such a problem, especially if you're going after the value market. There's no 'moat' aka defensible fat profit margin, just an honest business.

It also seems like instead of getting Canyon (leading consumer direct brand) level assembly, they get decent parts and expect you to get a bike mechanic to make up for whatever deficiencies the factory workers have. I've gotten three muscle bikes by mail and all had minor assembly issues that a bike mechanic (not me) caught

Without having ridden the R bikes, it seems like a testament to an open source, modular model of assembly, where consumer value is highest.

It will be interesting to see if more value brands besides R take the Class 3 Commuter market seriously, especially if they can use an open mold frame to get to market faster.
We received a Ride1up500 model last week. We had no damage. Had a professional bike mechanic check it over. It was fine.
 

BET

Active Member
The Espin Sport is also a great bike. Fit and finish is wonderful. Beautiful too. Bikes made in Taiwan. Good components. As for the 550 w versus 750 w, who cares along as the bike works well and does what you want. I have an Espin Sport and a Ride1up 500. Both are good bikes. Each $1200.
 

CarlB

Member
As for the 550 w versus 750 w, who cares

I brought it up because the OP was asking why "R1 can show up and offer a more compelling product" when many would find a bike with a larger motor more compelling. So to many, the R1 bikes aren't as compelling a product.
 

Asher

Well-Known Member
FWIW, I believe Juiced uses a Bafang motor rated for 350W and ups the wattage somehow. It may still be a better or stronger motor but continuous wattage is a notoriously haphazard figure.