HUB vs MID DRIVE - how can I compare?

Larry Ganz

Active Member
The blue window represents a cyclist's normal cadence range, the curve represents the motor's efficiency. You can play around the Bosch's website on their range calculator and you will find out that the cadence that provides the best range is from 70 RPM to 89 RPM, exactly within the window of a human cyclist's normal cadence range. How cool is that?
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us-en/service/range-assistant/

Note, the efficiency chart was about the early version of the Bosch motor. The current efficiency can be extrapolated from the current Bosch range calculator website. My field of interest has been on efficient automotive propulsion system design, especially hybrid vehicles but also in ICE and electric vehicles. So I am familiar at charts and curves especially when it comes to torque, power, and efficiency.

My normal cadence range is 50-70 rpm.
 

Trail Cruiser

Well-Known Member
My normal cadence range is 50-70 rpm.
I am just guessing that Bosch sourced their data sampling for that blue window of cadence range from a large group of European cyclists. I read in their early development that they were trying to duplicate the performance of a road cyclist (probably a very athletic rider). During that time they were still using the 1st gen big chain ring and they had multitude of settings from a very small display. I will send you the link later. The blue window which the chart represents cyclist cadence range spans from 65 to 112, I guess they narrowed down the bell curve for the purpose of targeting the performance profile of their motor. So your cadence range still overlaps with the Bosch's data.

Addendum:

Here's the link. It's a very interesting read for me.
https://www.electricbike.com/bosch-cannondale/

It was awhile back and I thought this image was also associated with above link but I can't find it anymore. However, the description of the motor profile is mentioned at the website.
bosch-efficiency-range-jpg.17778
 
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Larry Ganz

Active Member
Thanks for the info, I'll take a look.

When I'm on my stationary bike I'm usually pretty steady at between 50-60rpm on a fairly firm resistance, in order to keep going a long enough time for a good workout. But if I try to hit a sustained 75rpm, even at a very low effort setting, I can get very short of breath quickly without my oxygen.

The faster movement of my legs hitting my "spare tire" around my waist reduces my ability to fill my lungs fully, and with only one working lung I start to drop my sats.

I tend to be at these same low rpm on my Trek Powerfly as well, as it's just a comfortable range for my issues with fibromyalgia and lung disease, but I can stretch to about 70rpm before it starts to negatively affect my oxygenation.

Sometimes I wish the Bosche could put out more power at 40-50 rpm when just cruising in high gear and a mild hill comes up. I might be cruising in top gear at 15-18mph with little effort and then I approach a mild hill, and then it seems to put out only about half the power on the power gauge at 40rpm as it does if I shift down to hit 70rpm to get more power.

Jumping up from Tour to Turbo isn't always enough and I lose speed, making me downshift again to get power up. Then I can't maintain the high cadence and my speed drops again.
 

Alex M

Well-Known Member
The Winnebago poster should tell us how he plans to use his bikes.
Light off-roading in Colorado. Making their own way, in his own words. Sometimes with snow. No specifics on how steep. Disappeared after suggestion to go and try some, beginning with fatties, before deciding on other details.
 

Trail Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info, I'll take a look.

When I'm on my stationary bike I'm usually pretty steady at between 50-60rpm on a fairly firm resistance, in order to keep going a long enough time for a good workout. But if I try to hit a sustained 75rpm, even at a very low effort setting, I can get very short of breath quickly without my oxygen.

The faster movement of my legs hitting my "spare tire" around my waist reduces my ability to fill my lungs fully, and with only one working lung I start to drop my sats.

I tend to be at these same low rpm on my Trek Powerfly as well, as it's just a comfortable range for my issues with fibromyalgia and lung disease, but I can stretch to about 70rpm before it starts to negatively affect my oxygenation.

Sometimes I wish the Bosche could put out more power at 40-50 rpm when just cruising in high gear and a mild hill comes up. I might be cruising in top gear at 15-18mph with little effort and then I approach a mild hill, and then it seems to put out only about half the power on the power gauge at 40rpm as it does if I shift down to hit 70rpm to get more power.

Jumping up from Tour to Turbo isn't always enough and I lose speed, making me downshift again to get power up. Then I can't maintain the high cadence and my speed drops again.

When I'm on my stationary bike I'm usually pretty steady at between 50-60rpm on a fairly firm resistance, in order to keep going a long enough time for a good workout. But if I try to hit a sustained 75rpm, even at a very low effort setting, I can get very short of breath quickly without my oxygen.

The faster movement of my legs hitting my "spare tire" around my waist reduces my ability to fill my lungs fully, and with only one working lung I start to drop my sats.

I tend to be at these same low rpm on my Trek Powerfly as well, as it's just a comfortable range for my issues with fibromyalgia and lung disease, but I can stretch to about 70rpm before it starts to negatively affect my oxygenation.

Obviously the sampling on the cadence range were sourced from healthy cyclists. The faster the cadence esp in the 80's and above it becomes more aerobic exercise, so a person with only one lung will feel it more. On the other side if you keep the same effort but at a low cadence in the 40's, you build a lot of lactic acid and not adequately mobilized out from your muscles and risk having cramps. You need good hydration to minimize that.

Sometimes I wish the Bosche could put out more power at 40-50 rpm when just cruising in high gear and a mild hill comes up. I might be cruising in top gear at 15-18mph with little effort and then I approach a mild hill, and then it seems to put out only about half the power on the power gauge at 40rpm as it does if I shift down to hit 70rpm to get more power.

Dropping your usual cadence from 70 to 40 rpm would only cost you about a couple of miles in your range, so there is very little sacrifice on your range.
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us-en/service/range-assistant/

Jumping up from Tour to Turbo isn't always enough and I lose speed, making me downshift again to get power up. Then I can't maintain the high cadence and my speed drops again.

I suggest you increase your baseline assist level to sport (instead of tour) and go to turbo for extra help. And just focus on the fun of riding. You will eventually build up more endurance. To address range anxiety, just carry a spare battery like I do.
seat pack.jpg
 
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mrgold35

Well-Known Member
My two determining factors when I was deciding to dip my toe into the ebike world was cost and application of the ebike for work and fun riding. I was able to purchase two Radrovers for the average cost of a mid-drive bike. Having a mid-drive or hub advantages or dis-advantages didn't make a difference for my work commute because both drive systems covered me 99.9% for every situation I was likely to encounter (temps, range, speed, cargo capacity, maintenance, etc...). The rear hub had a slight advantage when trail riding with the addition of the throttle for short inclines, tight turns, obstacles, and very narrow/cramped trails.

I have no-doubt a mid-drive is better when compared to a hub motor depending on application. A hub motor came up on top with my check list and I haven't been disappointed after a year and +3500 miles between both "jack of all trades, master of none" rovers. I would really consider a mid-drive if requirements change outside the performance envelope of a hub drive capability.
 

Larry Ganz

Active Member
When I'm on my stationary bike I'm usually pretty steady at between 50-60rpm on a fairly firm resistance, in order to keep going a long enough time for a good workout. But if I try to hit a sustained 75rpm, even at a very low effort setting, I can get very short of breath quickly without my oxygen.

The faster movement of my legs hitting my "spare tire" around my waist reduces my ability to fill my lungs fully, and with only one working lung I start to drop my sats.

I tend to be at these same low rpm on my Trek Powerfly as well, as it's just a comfortable range for my issues with fibromyalgia and lung disease, but I can stretch to about 70rpm before it starts to negatively affect my oxygenation.

Obviously the sampling on the cadence range were sourced from healthy cyclists. The faster the cadence esp in the 80's and above it becomes more aerobic exercise, so a person with only one lung will feel it more. On the other side if you keep the same effort but at a low cadence in the 40's, you build a lot of lactic acid and not adequately mobilized out from your muscles and risk having cramps. You need good hydration to minimize that.

Sometimes I wish the Bosche could put out more power at 40-50 rpm when just cruising in high gear and a mild hill comes up. I might be cruising in top gear at 15-18mph with little effort and then I approach a mild hill, and then it seems to put out only about half the power on the power gauge at 40rpm as it does if I shift down to hit 70rpm to get more power.

Dropping your usual cadence from 70 to 40 rpm would only cost you about a couple of miles in your range, so there is very little sacrifice on your range.
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us-en/service/range-assistant/

Jumping up from Tour to Turbo isn't always enough and I lose speed, making me downshift again to get power up. Then I can't maintain the high cadence and my speed drops again.

I suggest you increase your baseline assist level to sport (instead of tour) and go to turbo for extra help. And just focus on the fun of riding. You will eventually build up more endurance. To address range anxiety, just carry a spare battery like I do.
View attachment 18700

I tried using the higher power levels to do a 16 mile ride to the zoo and back at higher speeds than usual (16.3mph avg instead of the usual 10-12mph avg when I limit myself to just ECO and TOUR). It included about 1600 feet of total climbing on the trip, and I dropped to 4 bars at 7 miles and down to 3 bars at 14 miles, just before I made it back home.

Normally in ECO and TOUR I go much slower and make it about 20-25 miles before I drop 2 bars in this hilly terrain, so my range was down about 33% using higher assist, but my avg speed was up 33% in return, without extra fatigue. So I could make that same trip twice on a single charge, but I did it quite a bit faster by using SPORT and TURBO for every climb (still ECO & TOUR on the flatter sections). My range anxiety has now been relieved, and I could still keep my cadence between 40-70rpm (but 55rpm is my sweet spot).

On the really steep climbs I would be in 1st-3rd gear in TURBO mode at 6-7mph without exceeding my physical limits, as I can't break 10mph on the steepest climbs without over-doing it. But being able to do 25-30mph on the downhill portions made up for it. Before I would work my a$$ off in TOUR when climbing the hills in 1st gear, and have nothing left in my body to keep my speed up for the rest of the ride.
 

Trail Cruiser

Well-Known Member
I tried using the higher power levels to do a 16 mile ride to the zoo and back at higher speeds than usual (16.3mph avg instead of the usual 10-12mph avg when I limit myself to just ECO and TOUR). It included about 1600 feet of total climbing on the trip, and I dropped to 4 bars at 7 miles and down to 3 bars at 14 miles, just before I made it back home.

Normally in ECO and TOUR I go much slower and make it about 20-25 miles before I drop 2 bars in this hilly terrain, so my range was down about 33% using higher assist, but my avg speed was up 33% in return, without extra fatigue. So I could make that same trip twice on a single charge, but I did it quite a bit faster by using SPORT and TURBO for every climb (still ECO & TOUR on the flatter sections). My range anxiety has now been relieved, and I could still keep my cadence between 40-70rpm (but 55rpm is my sweet spot).

On the really steep climbs I would be in 1st-3rd gear in TURBO mode at 6-7mph without exceeding my physical limits, as I can't break 10mph on the steepest climbs without over-doing it. But being able to do 25-30mph on the downhill portions made up for it. Before I would work my a$$ off in TOUR when climbing the hills in 1st gear, and have nothing left in my body to keep my speed up for the rest of the ride.
You will probably benefit from the emtb mode in place of the sport mode for those uphill portions without going too fast. Maybe you can try it. I think it's just a software upgrade.
 
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Larry Ganz

Active Member
You will probably benefit from the emtb mode in place of the sport mode for those uphill portions without going too fast. Maybe you can try it. I think it's just a software upgrade.

What I didn't like about the idea of eMTB mode is that sometimes I like to use Sport to get higher power but also reduce battery drain, and eMTN would let the bike go into turbo mode when I might not want it to. With the update I can only be certain to save battery if I'm in Tour or Eco mode, since the other two modes could include Turbo.

But now I'm finding that on the steep uphill climbs I can use Sport/Turbo and still get decent range, as long as I drop it to Eco/Tour for the easier and flatter parts of the ride. Today I tried to drain the battery and still made it 6 miles before dropping to 4 bars, so that could still get me 25-30 miles of range in eMTB mode. So I will likely do the update, which will reduce my need to keep switching modes, and I can focus on the 11 speeds instead.

I know I can make it home up the steep hills in Tour mode, I've done it before, just at a much slower pace. So if my battery is getting low I can still hold it back in Tour mode and get about 50NM torque with better battery life at 120% assist. I think Sport can get the motor to put out about 60NM and Turbo is the only mode that will put out full power at 75NM torque.

PS: Actually on my ride today I was hitting 8-9mph in Turbo mode on the steepest sections, although after the ride I was wheezing for about an hour. Yesterday I said it was about 6-7mph in Turbo without overdoing it, so that's about right.
 

Gregory

New Member
Uh, I need my 30 tooth drive sprocket to get up 15% grades, particularly if the battery gets low.And a 42 tooth to ride on flat ground. I'm planning on 80 miles trips without charging, electric against the wind at least 40 miles. Mid drive makes you chose one sprcket or the other and I don't think 30 tooth is available. Plus I was doing a conversion of an old steel bike and had questions about the new sprocket compatibility with old crank designs. Old bikes are sturdier, if you're installing a hub drive.
So I bought a front hub drive, geared. It is extremely powerful and zips me right up the 15% hill, no waiting. I don't even have to downshift. Fully charged 48 v batteries are nice (57 v after 11 miles) , but the shaking destroyed the battery internally the third trip, and I rode 24 miles home after failure the old way. Good to have a one-way clutch in the hub, no drag. Just and extra 20 pounds, no problem since I often carry 40 lb of supplies without power. BTW front drive was not a steering problem so far. My 48 v 1000 w hub was $200 and included controller, hand throttle, crank pickup and magnets, two hand brake handles for immediate shutoff, a LCD display of km/hr, battery level, PAS level. there was a mode and updown switch. The battery was from another vendor, we'll see how they respond to my warrenty request.

Uh, I need my 30 tooth drive sprocket to get up 15% grades, particularly if the battery gets low.And a 42 tooth to ride on flat ground. I'm planning on 80 miles trips without charging, electric against the wind at least 40 miles. Mid drive makes you chose one sprcket or the other and I don't think 30 tooth is available. Plus I was doing a conversion of an old steel bike and had questions about the new sprocket compatibility with old crank designs. Old bikes are sturdier, if you're installing a hub drive.
So I bought a front hub drive, geared. It is extremely powerful and zips me right up the 15% hill, no waiting. I don't even have to downshift. Fully charged 48 v batteries are nice (57 v after 11 miles) , but the shaking destroyed the battery internally the third trip, and I rode 24 miles home after failure the old way. Good to have a one-way clutch in the hub, no drag. Just and extra 20 pounds, no problem since I often carry 40 lb of supplies without power. BTW front drive was not a steering problem so far. My 48 v 1000 w hub was $200 and included controller, hand throttle, crank pickup and magnets, two hand brake handles for immediate shutoff, a LCD display of km/hr, battery level, PAS level. there was a mode and updown switch. The battery was from another vendor, we'll see how they respond to my warrenty request.
Where did u acquire your battery?confusing ,as many eBay options are 6week wait from China .prices are all over the map...I would love to have one that is similar to the freway battery I have on my other bike
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
Technology Bern University of Applied Sciences have conducted an efficiency test and concluded that geared hub drive (Maxxon for example) are most efficient compared to several Bosch and other mid-drive motors.

This should give a solid evidence to prove that mid-drives are not the most ideal in all cases. All this talk of efficiency is just pure talk. I also know from experience that my geared hubs gave me more range than mid-drives. Again, there are + and - to both but simply saying mid-drives are efficient is just BS. Please look at the detailed reports below. I still think a good geared hub motor coupled to a torque sensor gives the best power and range combo. [MAC, Easy motion 2018 geared hubs]

Diagramm_Distanz-ec9874ce.png


Diagramm_Verbrauch-8154caa6.png


Here is a video:
https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/redirect/detail/bcb452ec-d249-4760-aabf-21a6d3cd5d9a

Summary of the test:
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Reports for each candidate bikes:

Specialzied levo: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Cube Reaction pro: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Bergamont E-roxter: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Haibike hardnine: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Scott E-aspect: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Diavelo e650i: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Giant Dirt- E: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Flyer uproc 2: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Wheeler I-reader HD: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Whistler Bware: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Ghost Kato: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
 

Trail Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Technology Bern University of Applied Sciences have conducted an efficiency test and concluded that geared hub drive (Maxxon for example) are most efficient compared to several Bosch and other mid-drive motors.

This should give a solid evidence to prove that mid-drives are not the most ideal in all cases. All this talk of efficiency is just pure talk. I also know from experience that my geared hubs gave me more range than mid-drives. Again, there are + and - to both but simply saying mid-drives are efficient is just BS. Please look at the detailed reports below. I still think a good geared hub motor coupled to a torque sensor gives the best power and range combo. [MAC, Easy motion 2018 geared hubs]

Diagramm_Distanz-ec9874ce.png


Diagramm_Verbrauch-8154caa6.png


Here is a video:
https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/redirect/detail/bcb452ec-d249-4760-aabf-21a6d3cd5d9a

Summary of the test:
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Reports for each candidate bikes:

Specialzied levo: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Cube Reaction pro: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Bergamont E-roxter: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Haibike hardnine: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Scott E-aspect: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Diavelo e650i: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Giant Dirt- E: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Flyer uproc 2: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Wheeler I-reader HD: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Whistler Bware: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Ghost Kato: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Hi Ravi, that's a very interesting post since I am excited to see a very efficient hub drive. I don't see the Maxon hub drive as one of the ebikes tested in the article.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
They were all mid drives and one hub drive which was the Diavelo. Extract of the article were the following:

Wheeler rider HD, yamaha PWX, 500wh battery = 45 km or 11.0 wh/km
Cube reaction pro500, Bosch CX, 500 wh battery = 46 km or 10.8 wh/km
Bergamont Roxster, Bosch perf cruise, 500 wh battery = 49 km or 10.3 wh/km
Haibike Xduro hardnine, Bosch CX, 500 wh battery = 44 km or 11.3 wh/km
Flyer UPROC, Panasonic motor, 500 wh battery = 38 km or 11.3 wh/km
Specialized Levo, Brose, 460 wh battery = 37 km or 12.6 wh/km
Giant Dirct E, Yamaha sync dr, 409 wh battery = 41 km or 10.1 wh/km
Scott Aspect, Bosch motor, 506 wh battery = 41 km or 12.3 wh/km
Stoke E-blade, Bosch perf CX, 400 wh battery = 38 km or 10.6 wh/km
Whistle B ware, Bosch perf CX, 510 wh battery = 40 km or 10.1 wh/km
Ghost Kato2, Shimano E6000, 418 wh battery = 44 km or 9.5 wh/km
Diavelo E9501, Diavelo hub drive, 420 wh battery = 28 km or 17.6 wh/km

On that comparison the mid drives consumption ranges from 9.5 wh/km to 12.6 wh/km. There was only one hub drive and it comsumed more energy at 17.6 wh/km.

The Maxon drive provides promise for high efficiency from it's claimed 10.0 wh/km.
However, I want to see the source if it was from in-house information or from an independent test. If you can send me the link, I would greatly appreciate it.
upload_2017-11-29_17-4-31.png
Where was the image above taken?
I don't see it from Maxon website.
https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/en/home.html
The hub drive can have a higher peak efficiency considering less energy is wasted from the mechanical transmission. But That's all theory, a third party side by side comparison would be very interesting and very exciting since Maxon claims it can attain 10.0 wh/km consumption.
upload_2017-11-29_17-16-36.png

Regardless, the difference in efficiency is minimal but a hub drive is much easier to ride than a mid drive and preserves the life of the drive train (more durable).
 
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Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
Hi Ravi, that's a very interesting post since I am excited to see a very efficient hub drive. I don't see the Maxon hub drive as one of the ebikes tested in the article.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
They were all mid drives and one hub drive which was the Diavelo. Extract of the performance were the following:
Wheeler rider HD, yamaha PWX, 500wh battery = 45 km or 11.0 wh/km
Cube reaction pro500, Bosch CX, 500 wh battery = 46 km or 10.8 wh/km
Bergamont Roxster, Bosch perf cruise, 500 wh battery = 49 km or 10.3 wh/km
Haibike Xduro hardnine, Bosch CX, 500 wh battery = 44 km or 11.3 wh/km
Flyer UPROC, Panasonic motor, 500 wh battery = 38 km or 11.3 wh/km
Specialized Levo, Brose, 460 wh battery =37 km or 12.6 wh/km
Giant Dirct E, Yamaha sync dr, 409 wh battery = 41 km or 10.1 wh/km
Scott Aspect, Bosch motor, 506 wh battery = 41 km or 12.3 wh/km
Stoke E-blade, Bosch perf CX, 400 wh battery = 38 km or 10.6 wh/km
Whistle B ware, Bosch perf CX, 510 wh battery = 40 km or 10.1 wh/km
Ghost Kato2, Shimano E6000, 418 wh battery = 44 km or 9.5 wh/km
Diavelo E9501, Diavelo hub drive, 420 wh battery = 28 km or 17.6 wh/km

On that comparison the mid drives consumption ranges from 9.5 wh/km to 12.6 wh/km. There was only one hub drive and it comsumed more energy at 17.6 wh/km.

Regardless, a hub drive is much easier to ride than a mid drive.

Here you go. Maxxon had the best efficiency but the other hub Diavelo had the worst efficiency. Goes to show that not all hubs are created equal and similarly, not all mid-drives are created equal.
https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/tl_files/content/Downloads/Messbericht_maxon_Bikedrive_BFH.pdf

it was also published in the velo journal: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

the testing was done by a 3rd party. we can never be sure of the bias these facilities may have. But their data looks reasonable and they have used a pretty good testing platform with dyno, temperature profiler and standard conditions.

Heinrich Schwarzenbach
Prof. of Mechanics and Simulation
Technology Bern University of Applied Sciences
  • Institute for Energy and Mobility Research IEM
  • Laboratory | Electric machines and drive systems
 

Trail Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Here you go. Maxxon had the best efficiency but the other hub Diavelo had the worst efficiency. Goes to show that not all hubs are created equal and similarly, not all mid-drives are created equal.
https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/tl_files/content/Downloads/Messbericht_maxon_Bikedrive_BFH.pdf

it was also published in the velo journal: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

the testing was done by a 3rd party. we can never be sure of the bias these facilities may have. But their data looks reasonable and they have used a pretty good testing platform with dyno, temperature profiler and standard conditions.

Heinrich Schwarzenbach
Prof. of Mechanics and Simulation
Technology Bern University of Applied Sciences
  • Institute for Energy and Mobility Research IEM
  • Laboratory | Electric machines and drive systems

Can you please send me the link of the image below?
Diagramm_Verbrauch-8154caa6.png
 

emco5

Active Member
> > Not ideal in all cases, but a mid-drive with rear derailleur setup is an excellent hill climber.

Only when you are climbing a steep hill at low pace from a dead stop if not, geared hub is as good as any mid-drive.

Ravi, sorry, but you are not always right. Anyone who has ridden both a hub and mid-drive up hills knows what I'm talking about.
 

Trail Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Alright, for those engineers, geeks, and nerds out there who want to crunch some numbers, I tabulated the power consumption among the ebikes and incorporated the Maxon data into it. Blue = mid motor, Red= hub motor.
table.jpg

SourceS of information are the following:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/tl_files/content/Downloads/Messbericht_maxon_Bikedrive_BFH.pdf

I am very much impressed on the Maxon's performance. It is different from the typical hub drives in the market today that is represented by the Diavelo in the comparison table. It has the efficiency of the most efficient mid drives but with the ease and drive train durability of the user- friendly hub drive.

I can't find in the internet the unique internal design that makes the motor so efficient, probably, it's a well guarded trade secret for now. However, at $ 2,850.00 per kit (no wheel), it is something to think twice if you really want it for that price.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Correction: Whistle B ware used 400wh battery (not 500wh).
 
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Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Halifax
> > Not ideal in all cases, but a mid-drive with rear derailleur setup is an excellent hill climber.

Ravi, sorry, but you are not always right. Anyone who has ridden both a hub and mid-drive up hills knows what I'm talking about.

Not trying to argue. Just saying from my personal experience experience of ....
5000+ miles on Easy Motion geared hub motor bikes.
5000+ miles Bosch speed motor based bikes
10,000+ miles Stromer- DD hubs.

I am willing to bet $300 that the new 2017 Easy Motion 650: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) will outperform any Bosch CX or Bosch speed motor (Haibike Riese and Muller, Focus etc) bike on a moderate terrain of 20 miles with 5-8% grade hills and have more range and power. The price-performance ratio for mid-motor bikes is yet to make a compelling sense. it's simply not there.
Not trying to be arrogant here. It is thousands of hours of saddle time speaking...

Alright, for those engineers, geeks, and nerds out there who want to crunch some numbers, I tabulated the power consumption among the ebikes and incorporated the Maxon data into it. Blue = mid motor, Red= hub motor.
View attachment 19222
Source information are the following:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/tl_files/content/Downloads/Messbericht_maxon_Bikedrive_BFH.pdf

I am very much impressed on the Maxon's performance. It is different from the typical hub drives in the market that is represented by the Diavelo in the comparison table. It has the efficiency of the most efficient mid drives but with the ease and durability of the user- friendly hub drive.

I can't find in the internet the unique internal design that makes the motor so efficient, probably, it's a well guarded trade secret for now. However, at $ 2,850.00 per kit (no wheel), it is something to think twice if you really want it for that price.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Cool analysis buddy!
Maxxon is supplying motors to many OEM's and I wish somebody made a speed pedelec with Maxxon with 750Whr battery. That would be E-bike porn.
it's fun to get into the details but at the end of the day all these bikes are awesome fun.
You should become a content writer for EBR because you do have quite a good handle on all the e-bike related tech.