I did it again! Sport and Flow on order....

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
After a LOT of shoping and owning a 2020 Flow for a few months now (just loving the light weight and style), we've purchased another Flow, and a Sport, which is going to be a project bike. Espin says the new displays and controllers have been changed so we'll give those a try - but I can tell you now they'll be on a short leash. My bet is they'll be replaced with much friendlier aftermarket controllers and displays from KT. Why a second Flow? The wife and I are snowbirds, commuting from Michigan to Florida every 6 months. This will allow for one less thing to lug back and forth on that commute.

Planned mods for the Sport will be some sort of air fork with rebound control, Schwalbe Super Moto X balloon tires for good ride and less rolling resistance, a suspension seat, and whatever need to be done to allow somebody my size an upright riding position. Basically, I want to replace my much modified '17 Rad City with a newer bike. At 4 years old, it still hasn't missed a beat, but clearly it's due to be replaced and I'm going to take the chance to update to cleaner (no battery hump) styling while I'm at it.

The Flow has already taken me by surprise with how sporty the 500w motor is, but we'll have a 1000w MAC geared hub motor held in reserve just in case. That will not be sold with the Rad City. Big priority for the project is to keep the Sport light while maintaining it factory appearance using premium parts. Parts designed to provide a great city bike. My bet is, I can do that on a budget that will be tough to beat when compare to other bikes with similar features - much like the Rad City project bike.

Will update as the project progresses.... -Al
 

PatriciaK

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pacific Northwest and Piedmont Triad
After a LOT of shoping and owning a 2020 Flow for a few months now (just loving the light weight and style), we've purchased another Flow, and a Sport, which is going to be a project bike. Espin says the new displays and controllers have been changed so we'll give those a try - but I can tell you now they'll be on a short leash. My bet is they'll be replaced with much friendlier aftermarket controllers and displays from KT. Why a second Flow? The wife and I are snowbirds, commuting from Michigan to Florida every 6 months. This will allow for one less thing to lug back and forth on that commute.

Planned mods for the Sport will be some sort of air fork with rebound control, Schwalbe Super Moto X balloon tires for good ride and less rolling resistance, a suspension seat, and whatever need to be done to allow somebody my size an upright riding position. Basically, I want to replace my much modified '17 Rad City with a newer bike. At 4 years old, it still hasn't missed a beat, but clearly it's due to be replaced and I'm going to take the chance to update to cleaner (no battery hump) styling while I'm at it.

The Flow has already taken me by surprise with how sporty the 500w motor is, but we'll have a 1000w MAC geared hub motor held in reserve just in case. That will not be sold with the Rad City. Big priority for the project is to keep the Sport light while maintaining it factory appearance using premium parts. Parts designed to provide a great city bike. My bet is, I can do that on a budget that will be tough to beat when compare to other bikes with similar features - much like the Rad City project bike.

Will update as the project progresses.... -Al
I got my Flow because there was no reasonable way to cart my La Free back and forth between coasts a couple of times a year. So glad I did - it's a sweet, peppy little bike, and I love it!
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Shipping papers were done the day following the order, generating an email from Espin indicating the bikes "had shipped". 2 days later the tracking is indicating the bikes had actually been picked up, along with a proposed delivery date 10 days from the day of the order. We'll see. That would set a new quick delivery record for us! -Al
 
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PatriciaK

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pacific Northwest and Piedmont Triad
Shipping papers were done the day following the order, generating an email from Espin indicating the bikes "had shipped". 2 days later the tracking is indicating the bikes had actually been picked up, along with a proposed delivery date 10 days from the day of the order. We'll see. That would set a new quick delivery record for us! -Al
🤞🙏🤞🙏🤞🙏
 

GenXrider

Well-Known Member
Good luck. Hopefully the controller/display PAS system has improved enough that you'll want to keep it. I tried to find some info on whether it was power based vs. speed based (like the old one) a while back and was not able to get a definitive answer. I hope Espin has learned their lesson.
 
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AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Bikes were received today, exactly 1 week from the time the order was sent in. Boxes look good, the Sport has been assembled and ridden a 1/2 mile - rain set in.:(

The display and controller are very clearly not the same as the one we received on the Flow in February. This one (2021 version) may have some potential..... but I'll reserve judgement for just a bit. I did verify PatricaK's claim that PAS 1 speeds are MUCH lower than the older controller - supplying something like 100 watts. A very nice surprise! Don't know if the controller is power based or speed based yet.

I can share this - the owners' manual for the display. Clearly there is MUCH more to this one:

 

GenXrider

Well-Known Member
I took a look at the manual. Looks like it was a non-technical person or non-English speaking person who documented it. It refers to assist levels as gears, but gears are totally different than assist levels. And it refers to the percentage indicator by the battery indicator as "power" when I think it's really a battery charge percentage metric. My Ride1Up has a battery meter like that, but it also has a power meter that reads watts. Skimming through it, I didn't see anything about adjusting the power on an individual assist level to a different percentage as indicated on the Espin website, where it states something like you can lower from 30% to 20%. Anyway, it will be interesting to hear more feedback on your testing.. speed vs. power, for example and if you can adjust the power per assist level.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I took a look at the manual. Looks like it was a non-technical person or non-English speaking person who documented it. It refers to assist levels as gears, but gears are totally different than assist levels. And it refers to the percentage indicator by the battery indicator as "power" when I think it's really a battery charge percentage metric. My Ride1Up has a battery meter like that, but it also has a power meter that reads watts. Skimming through it, I didn't see anything about adjusting the power on an individual assist level to a different percentage as indicated on the Espin website, where it states something like you can lower from 30% to 20%. Anyway, it will be interesting to hear more feedback on your testing.. speed vs. power, for example and if you can adjust the power per assist level.
So show me where your R1U is able to shift up through the PAS levels AUTOMATICALLY as the bike speed increases? That's just about the neatest thing I've run across....and yes, you can turn that feature on or off as desired.

Wattage in use is available on the display in real time.

Available amperage is adjustable and changes there are spread across the available PAS levels.

Number of PAS levels easily set 3, 5, or 9. Nice if there's too much available in PAS 1 of 5 for instance, because when you go to 9 PAS levels the power available in PAS 1 is reduced to the point the bike will hardly move (depending on where your max amperage is set)

No, it's not perfect, nor is it the best I've ridden. It IS, without any doubt, light years better than what they had.

And I would mention, with all due respect, that notes regarding your R1U are not on topic, and for that reason, would ask that you post them elsewhere, please.

At this point, my biggest beef is the lack of an indicator on the shifter. It shifts nice, but I'm used to seeing what gear I'm in at a glance. No indicator is not going to work here. 8 speed Shimano shifters on order. (Shimano Alfine SL-S503 8-Speed Rapidfire Shifter for Internally GearedHub, -Al
 

PatriciaK

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pacific Northwest and Piedmont Triad
So show me where your R1U is able to shift up through the PAS levels AUTOMATICALLY as the bike speed increases? That's just about the neatest thing I've run across....and yes, you can turn that feature on or off as desired.

Wattage in use is available on the display in real time.

Available amperage is adjustable and changes there are spread across the available PAS levels.

Number of PAS levels easily set 3, 5, or 9. Nice if there's too much available in PAS 1 of 5 for instance, because when you go to 9 PAS levels the power available in PAS 1 is reduced to the point the bike will hardly move (depending on where your max amperage is set)

No, it's not perfect, nor is it the best I've ridden. It IS, without any doubt, light years better than what they had.

And I would mention, with all due respect, that notes regarding your R1U are not on topic, and for that reason, would ask that you post them elsewhere, please.

At this point, my biggest beef is the lack of an indicator on the shifter. It shifts nice, but I'm used to seeing what gear I'm in at a glance. No indicator is not going to work here. 8 speed Shimano shifters on order. (Shimano Alfine SL-S503 8-Speed Rapidfire Shifter for Internally GearedHub, -Al
AHicks... Past time to just tap the "ignore" button 😉. For whatever reason (certainly not based on ownership or any actual experience with the bike), this person hates Espin products. This is not going to change, nor is the apparent need to troll Espin threads to trash the brand. Reasoning with this person is futile - I hit "ignore" long ago 🤣.
 

vita10gy

Member
Region
USA
So show me where your R1U is able to shift up through the PAS levels AUTOMATICALLY as the bike speed increases? That's just about the neatest thing I've run across....and yes, you can turn that feature on or off as desired.

Wattage in use is available on the display in real time.

Available amperage is adjustable and changes there are spread across the available PAS levels.

Number of PAS levels easily set 3, 5, or 9. Nice if there's too much available in PAS 1 of 5 for instance, because when you go to 9 PAS levels the power available in PAS 1 is reduced to the point the bike will hardly move (depending on where your max amperage is set)

No, it's not perfect, nor is it the best I've ridden. It IS, without any doubt, light years better than what they had.

And I would mention, with all due respect, that notes regarding your R1U are not on topic, and for that reason, would ask that you post them elsewhere, please.

At this point, my biggest beef is the lack of an indicator on the shifter. It shifts nice, but I'm used to seeing what gear I'm in at a glance. No indicator is not going to work here. 8 speed Shimano shifters on order. (Shimano Alfine SL-S503 8-Speed Rapidfire Shifter for Internally GearedHub, -Al
FWIW I do like 99% of my riding on the hardest gear. Unless something specific happens I basically forget it even has gears.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
My
FWIW I do like 99% of my riding on the hardest gear. Unless something specific happens I basically forget it even has gears.
My wife has a tendency to ride like that too - in the name of exercise. Makes no sense to me - but SHE is the one riding the bike! I'm glad to have her for company, so I try my damdest to avoid being critical. Bigger hills will have her changing gears, AND PAS levels though....
 

vita10gy

Member
Region
USA
It's not so much for exercise as just any other gear just feels like free spinning on any given PAS level. I suppose it helps that Florida is pretty flat though.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
It's not so much for exercise as just any other gear just feels like free spinning on any given PAS level. I suppose it helps that Florida is pretty flat though.
That sounds like there's too much power available going to the motor. You are in PAS 1 when it "feels like free spinning" (often called ghost pedaling)?

What bike is this?
 

PatriciaK

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pacific Northwest and Piedmont Triad
It's not so much for exercise as just any other gear just feels like free spinning on any given PAS level. I suppose it helps that Florida is pretty flat though.
Hmmm... It feels to me that, as long as I keep the speed above about 6MPH, I'm actually pedaling in most of my gears (the lowest does tend to feel like ghosting, on the flat) almost always.

I'll pay better attention next ride and report back😉!
 

vita10gy

Member
Region
USA
That sounds like there's too much power available going to the motor. You are in PAS 1 when it "feels like free spinning" (often called ghost pedaling)?

What bike is this?
Espin Flow 2021. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little on the "free spinning" in the strict sense of free spinning, but it doesn't feel like I'm helping much on small slope/level ground and not at all on downward slopes unless I'm on the hardest gear for 2-5.

I can't speak to level 1 as I've spent like zero time on it. I've probably spent more time experimenting on PAS 0 than I've been on PAS 1.

Could just be riding style too. I basically use the PAS to pick how fast the situation calls for and then pedal along with that. I don't try to "outride" PAS. I suppose if you're a person who likes to do PAS 4 speeds on PAS 3 then the gears might matter more to you.
 
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AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
So if you could change something to make it a better riding experience for you, what would that be?

I'm thinking that you could reduce the amount of power across the board if it seems like there's too much. Pretty easy to do. (reduced tendency to ghost pedal).

Then, there's your ability to go to the 9 PAS level option. That really lets you be picky regarding how much power is available. Pas 1 will likely be too little all of a sudden, so you keep going higher until you get a grin on your face (just right!).

It's all right there available to you. Might just as well figure out how it works and use it! -Al
 

GenXrider

Well-Known Member
It's not so much for exercise as just any other gear just feels like free spinning on any given PAS level. I suppose it helps that Florida is pretty flat though.
The website says the smallest cog on the cassette is a 13T. Is that correct? That's definitely lower geared than the common 11T size and would help explain why you ride in the highest gear so much .
 

GenXrider

Well-Known Member
So show me where your R1U is able to shift up through the PAS levels AUTOMATICALLY as the bike speed increases? That's just about the neatest thing I've run across....and yes, you can turn that feature on or off as desired.
Yeah, it doesn't do that. I'm sure I wouldn't use that feature though, because I normally operate PAS exactly the opposite, increasing it when the bike slows down (like when starting to ascend a hill or turning into a strong headwind) and decreasing the level when the bike speeds up (like when starting to descend a hill). It might be good for commuters who aren't out for exercise or otherwise want to go faster at the expense of using more power.
Available amperage is adjustable and changes there are spread across the available PAS levels.

Number of PAS levels easily set 3, 5, or 9. Nice if there's too much available in PAS 1 of 5 for instance, because when you go to 9 PAS levels the power available in PAS 1 is reduced to the point the bike will hardly move (depending on where your max amperage is set)

No, it's not perfect, nor is it the best I've ridden. It IS, without any doubt, light years better than what they had.
That's good to hear it's much better than the last one you bought. It sounds like you won't need to replace the controller and display on this one. I take it that it's power based now instead of speed based, as well.

The customization of power output with the current/amps setting across all PAS levels as you described sounds very different than what it mentioned on the Espin website in regard to the new PAS customization where it gives the specific example of changing PAS 1 from 30% to 20%.
It sounds like you're able to get the power output where you want it through the current and PAS range, though, so that's all good.

It's good to hear Espin made big improvements with their PAS!

Edited to add:
It looks like the % adjustment is relevant to the Nero and Nesta, not the Flow, and probably not the Sport.

Found this posted in the Espin users group:
Our 2021 Nero and Nesta came with PAS LEVEL 1 set at 40%, which is way too high (too much power) for starting out. We evaluated several different power levels and decided to reset our PAS1 for 20%, PAS2 at 40%, PAS3 at 60%, PAS4 at 80%, and PAS5 at 99%. Now we have good power performance at all five PAS levels.
 
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