If you don't mind sharing your input for a new bike..

SVRACER295

New Member
Region
USA
Hello,
I am one who likes to provide my input if asked, however usually just lay low in the background. I am a former road racer, retired, and now looking for a "fun" off road E-bike to take in the back 40 and also for fun fast rips. I am gong to use it for hunting, rides with the Ms.'s as she is going to purchase the Aventon Aventure. I was thinking I was dead set on minimum of a 1000w Mid Drive, I would like to know if there a big difference between 750w and 1000W for hill climbing and rough country, top speed is not my number one but its nice. Torque and ability to get up and through tough terrain is priority. I am struggling to find my bike.. I have narrowed it down to what I think are these:
  1. Jugg Ultra FS
  2. Spectre S
  3. Sondors Rockstar
  4. Himiway Cobra Pro
I see many have after sale gaps that go from frustrating to non existent on this list. This is a big purchase to me and find this forum very knowledgeable and the list is not the bible, if I have not been fortunate to review a brand or bike not on this list please let me know your thoughts. I want to stay max of 4200. Thank you in advance for any input of your experience and guidance on best value to cost.
 
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Timpo

Well-Known Member

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I think the first question needs to be geared hub or mid drive? When talking off road, tough terrain and big hills, my attention would be on the mid drives, and the more power the better. Yes, there can be quite a bit of difference 750 to 1000w. Some of the 750's are rated 750w max. This vs. 1000w motor that are conservatively rated at 1000w......

And I would maybe add Rize and M2S bikes to your list.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Wattage isn't so important as Newton Meters of torque. The former is, in reality, just a measurement of how much sustained abuse (throttle power) the motor can take. The latter is how much grunt it gives to the 'pedals'.

For genuine singletrack, I think you'll find that gradual application of power is more important than how much you put down, although as @AHicks says. more *is* arguably better :D. I say arguably because people will argue you don't need/shouldn't have so much. And there will be the inevitable calls to "buy a motorcycle' from people who don't realize you can't pedal a motorcycle...

The Bafang Ultra (aka 620) motor found on most of your choices is great... but in its production form is ham-handed in its application of power, and recent models have lost their programmability. That programmability up to now has let them be tamed and refined to such a degree they're entirely different motors.

I have to say I am not a fan of the kind of FS linkage I see on the Specter S and one other on your list. All of those project frames linked above have the same design. Chinese frames tend to have REALLY long chainstays and lousy geometry.

I think the best engineered bike on your list is the Sondors. 21 ah battery, Hydraulic brakes, SRAM 11S drivetrain, 25a controller ... which means that '750w' label is hogwash... 54.6v x 25a = a peak of 1365w and since thats a Bafang motor, 1365w is probably a lot closer to a continuous value rather than a momentary peak. BUT... 21ah on an e-mtb (plus the 48T chainring) should be a telltale that this bike is not aimed at singletrack shredders. It just looks more like one. That bike's advertised weight is 83 lbs but its more like 90. BUT... of the bikes on the list, I'd buy that one if I had to have a manufactured e-mtb (disclosure: I'm an admin on a couple Sondors user groups, but thats for noobie support. I build my own bikes frame-up).

Some others to consider: Take a look at Frey. They have a reputation for being well-engineered. Also I see Luna Cycle has the X-2 actually in stock and shipping, and the Ultra-powered Z-1 is apparently going to be shipping this month and Luna says this M620/Ultra is not the new version you are locked out of.

... It also has the advantage of not having the crappy Bafang CANBus firmware which requires special box and special permission to program. This drive can be programmed as simply as the BBSHD or BBS02 using any Bafang programming cable.

Or blow your budget and look at WattWagons? They also do their own controllers.
 
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SVRACER295

New Member
Region
USA
WOW.. this is interesting. If I new how to source all of the necessary bits this could be the best option.
 

SVRACER295

New Member
Region
USA
I think the first question needs to be geared hub or mid drive? When talking off road, tough terrain and big hills, my attention would be on the mid drives, and the more power the better. Yes, there can be quite a bit of difference 750 to 1000w. Some of the 750's are rated 750w max. This vs. 1000w motor that are conservatively rated at 1000w......

And I would maybe add Rize and M2S bikes to your list.
Thank you! I am only looking for mid drive 1000w, power source. I'll check out M2S as well. Much appreciated
 

SVRACER295

New Member
Region
USA
Wattage isn't so important as Newton Meters of torque. The former is, in reality, just a measurement of how much sustained abuse (throttle power) the motor can take. The latter is how much grunt it gives to the 'pedals'.

For genuine singletrack, I think you'll find that gradual application of power is more important than how much you put down, although as @AHicks says. more *is* arguably better :D. I say arguably because people will argue you don't need/shouldn't have so much. And there will be the inevitable calls to "buy a motorcycle' from people who don't realize you can't pedal a motorcycle...

The Bafang Ultra (aka 620) motor found on most of your choices is great... but in its production form is ham-handed in its application of power, and recent models have lost their programmability. That programmability up to now has let them be tamed and refined to such a degree they're entirely different motors.

I have to say I am not a fan of the kind of FS linkage I see on the Specter S and one other on your list. All of those project frames linked above have the same design. Chinese frames tend to have REALLY long chainstays and lousy geometry.

I think the best engineered bike on your list is the Sondors. 21 ah battery, Hydraulic brakes, SRAM 11S drivetrain, 25a controller ... which means that '750w' label is hogwash... 54.6v x 25a = a peak of 1365w and since thats a Bafang motor, 1365w is probably a lot closer to a continuous value rather than a momentary peak. BUT... 21ah on an e-mtb (plus the 48T chainring) should be a telltale that this bike is not aimed at singletrack shredders. It just looks more like one. That bike's advertised weight is 83 lbs but its more like 90. BUT... of the bikes on the list, I'd buy that one if I had to have a manufactured e-mtb (disclosure: I'm an admin on a couple Sondors user groups, but thats for noobie support. I build my own bikes frame-up).

Some others to consider: Take a look at Frey. They have a reputation for being well-engineered. Also I see Luna Cycle has the X-2 actually in stock and shipping, and the Ultra-powered Z-1 is apparently going to be shipping this month and Luna says this M620/Ultra is not the new version you are locked out of.



Or blow your budget and look at WattWagons? They also do their own controllers.
I recently moved the Frey Liberty FS to the top, but it's a wait that I'm not sure is even known or one I want to wait. I was told like Fall. Your analysis is valuable for the education on torque. I watched some dude's rip some modded Rockstars on YouTube. Looks like a value for the price.

Thank you for the info share!
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Also, if you're willing to go through the trouble contacting the supplier, Alibaba might be the option too.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
WOW.. this is interesting. If I new how to source all of the necessary bits this could be the best option.
Project management is a part of that series I am working on. Here is the build sheet for the project bike in the series. Since that bike is pretty much a generic e-mtb, the parts list is very close to universal. Given what you said here, maybe I'll add a column for the url to each part I chose. Its something I did in my early build sheets. Not something I need anymore but I can see the first time builder getting some benefit from it.

 

SVRACER295

New Member
Region
USA
Hello,

With all of your valuable input I narrowed it down to two:
M2S Ultra FS
Juggernaut Ultra FS with the hub upgrade.
Both land around 4200

I just am not experienced enough to compare components to know which comes with the better setup. I'm doing many google searches still scratching my head though, this is difficult stuff.
This must be how novice racers felt when coming to my race classes.
Project management is a part of that series I am working on. Here is the build sheet for the project bike in the series. Since that bike is pretty much a generic e-mtb, the parts list is very close to universal. Given what you said here, maybe I'll add a column for the url to each part I chose. Its something I did in my early build sheets. Not something I need anymore but I can see the first time builder getting some benefit from it.

 
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SVRACER295

New Member
Region
USA
Thank you for the help with this decision. The choice is the Juggernaut Ultra FS.
Both companies were great to talk with, both took the time to review their products versus the competitor. The end result was fit and finish and the conversation with Clayton at Biktrix. Looking forward to the journey.