Improved service on the horizon from R&M?

webcurl

Well-Known Member
This article (one of a few) describes one of the new units as a "service department", sounds promising, might be a while until it's operational though.
Also more space for R&D sounds promising too.
 
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Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Nice that they can afford to build a new building for their bean counters.

I would not hold out hope that we end users of their products will see improved "customer service" as Riese & Muller does not see bike riders as their customers. Their customers are the dealer who buy their bikes. They clearly have wanted as little as possible to do with those of us who ride their bikes.

Unless they plan to put some new people into that new building, with better communication skills and a clear mission to develop good relations with the retail buyers of their bikes, don't expect the new building to house anything but more of the same frustrating indifference.
 

JVBulman

Member
Region
USA
I would not hold out hope that we end users of their products will see improved "customer service" as Riese & Muller does not see bike riders as their customers. Their customers are the dealer who buy their bikes. They clearly have wanted as little as possible to do with those of us who ride their bikes.
For all the grumbling I see on this boards about R&M working through their dealers instead of directly with their customers (yes, they consider you their customers) you all don't seem to have much of a grasp on why it's that way and I suspect the key is in how bikes are marketed in the US/BC (sport/recreation) vs how they are marketed in the EU (transportation.)

Do you email the manufacturer of your car with questions or do you go through a dealership?
 
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webcurl

Well-Known Member
For all the grumbling I see on this boards about R&M working through their dealers instead of directly with their customers (yes, they consider you their customers) you all don't seem to have much of a grasp on why it's that way and I suspect the key is in how bikes are marketed in the US/BC (sport/recreation) vs how they are marketed in the EU (transportation.)

Do you email the manufacturer of your car with questions or do you go through a dealership?
How mature is the car industry compared to the higher tech end of the ebike industry in non-EU parts of the world?
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
And i guess by buying an R&M we now have a higher bar of perfection for which we strive to achieve :)
I bet the whole R&M experience for most is a whole lot better than many other brands.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
R&D of what ? They seem to be only making frames.

When they try to design or at least customize their components then we may talk about r&d.
 

Polivios

Member
R&D of what ? They seem to be only making frames.

When they try to design or at least customize their components then we may talk about r&d.
Dont agree with you, the frame and they way you solve engineering/geometry challenges imposed by the frame is what distinguishes a modern eBike company today...

Speaking of service focused to end-users I think it makes sense for a company like R&M, I will give you an example:
Just ordered a Nevo 3 for my wife, she was so jealous of my Superdelite. I was expecting that R&M would have offered the option to order it with
the same ABUS key as with my first bike but according to my dealer it is not possible, I wish they had a service department to address my request..
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
R&D of what ? They seem to be only making frames.

When they try to design or at least customize their components then we may talk about r&d.
Right it's outrageous why they can be making so many ebikes at all. What kind of people are buying them?
It's called re-inventing the wheel without re-inventing the wheel and i don't think it's a simple goal to achieve.
Once a design is in your headspace it's very easy to envisage beyond that design.
When the Charger's, Delite's, Supercharger's & Load's with/without Rohloff & Gates Belt were released, what would you say around that same time were so similar?
 
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Johnny

Well-Known Member
Rohloff & Gates Belt were released,
RM did not design/manufacture rohloff or gates belt. Using components off the shelf is not r&d.

Dont agree with you, the frame and they way you solve engineering/geometry challenges imposed by the frame is what distinguishes a modern eBike company today...

I don't see any significant challenges in designing bike frames(That is why small teams of a few people can come up comparable designs and manufacture similar bikes for less money). It is actually a joke when compared to car manufacturing where many components come together.

If ebikes stay popular after the pandemic and if the volume of sales come close to the motor vehicles then the prices will significantly drop and we may see some serious steps towards innovation.
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
RM did not design/manufacture rohloff or gates belt. Using components off the shelf is not r&d.
There's obviously no research or development required to put them all together with a custom frame?
Still to this day i only see R&M & Nicolai producing full suspension Rohloff/Gates CDX ebikes, any others?
I don't see any significant challenges in designing bike frames(That is why small teams of a few people can come up comparable designs and manufacture similar bikes for less money). It is actually a joke when compared to car manufacturing where many components come together.

If ebikes stay popular after the pandemic and if the volume of sales come close to the motor vehicles then the prices will significantly drop and we may see some serious steps towards innovation.
I repeat:
When the Charger's, Delite's, Supercharger's & Load's with/without Rohloff & Gates Belt were released, what (ebikes) would you say around that same time were so similar?
And in mass production.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
There's obviously no research or development required to put them all together with a custom frame?
Still to this day i only see R&M & Nicolai producing full suspension Rohloff/Gates CDX ebikes, any others?

I repeat:
When the Charger's, Delite's, Supercharger's & Load's with/without Rohloff & Gates Belt were released, what (ebikes) would you say around that same time were so similar?
And in mass production.

A rohloff can be installed on any bike as long as you don't need a belt drive. Building a fs frame that accepts a belt drive does not seem to be a big challenge, the only modification is adding a tensioner and alignment. What is the big deal? There are also several pinion based full suspension/gates bikes which employ a similar design.

Just because you don't see a customized bike to your liking from a mass manufacturer does not mean that it requires a significant r&d. Sometimes it is just a matter of demand. There is simply not enough demand for fs/rohloff/gates bikes for many companies to go in.

Using an off the shelf component is not r&d.
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
A rohloff can be installed on any bike as long as you don't need a belt drive. Building a fs frame that accepts a belt drive does not seem to be a big challenge, the only modification is adding a tensioner and alignment. What is the big deal? There are also several pinion based full suspension/gates bikes which employ a similar design.
It's easy as per these documents:
And the latest Delite & SuperDelite's were released very soon after Bosch's Gen4 motor, i doubt there was any of the above info available for Gates/Bosch Gen4 at the time which leads one to ponder if R&M got really early access to this info or maybe they helped, in conjunction with Bosch & Gates with the R&D of this info.
And could you please do some research and point me to where you first saw a Rohloff/Gates FS ebike tensioner on a production ebike?

It's like you're trying to say that what Apple (Computer) Inc. does is not R&D because they adopt other companies idea's, technologies & products but >what do you call the department< within Apple Inc. that researches the best products & most future-proof technologies that can be mass produced to their liking & fit and then develop the software & hardware (not new principles, glue) that binds it all together into one product?
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
And could you please do some research and point me to where you first saw a Rohloff/Gates FS ebike tensioner on a production ebike?

Tensioners seem to be used since 1970's. It is really not the point who used it for an ebike first. (And most likely Gates also offered tensioners for their belts too). Maybe you can give us some information on what was the challenge and how rm solved it.

It's like you're trying to say that what Apple (Computer) Inc. does is not R&D because they adopt other companies idea's, technologies & products but >what do you call the department< within Apple

Come on, although Apple is a company which "adopts" other technologies to their products, RM compared to Apple is at best a mom and pop local computer shop from 2000's, which picks off the shelf components (mboard, graphics card, memory , hdd, power supply etc) and put them in their case.
 

dblhelix

Well-Known Member
Tensioners seem to be used since 1970's. It is really not the point who used it for an ebike first. (And most likely Gates also offered tensioners for their belts too). Maybe you can give us some information on what was the challenge and how rm solved it.



Come on, although Apple is a company which "adopts" other technologies to their products, RM compared to Apple is at best a mom and pop local computer shop from 2000's, which picks off the shelf components (mboard, graphics card, memory , hdd, power supply etc) and put them in their case.
I think R&M deserves design kudos for their original bike, the Birdy (non-e, folding, full suspension) and current models like the Load. I don’t think it’s trivial to put together the Load.

To the rest of your points, I largely agree. Before ebikes, Rohloff was a niche product, and now on ebikes, it’s still a niche product, not an engineering miracle to integrate with belt+frame. The real reason it isn’t widespread is because 1) most ppl don’t need a Rohloff 2) the big boys at Trek, Specialized undoubtedly took a pass on an additional “service partner” that demands you rebuild a wheel just to send the hub hundreds/thousands of miles to pull out and press in two seals that are external to the hub Itself. I have seen videos posted here on the process without the disclaimer that the end user is unable to obtain the seals or the tools that make the process simple.

EMTB will largely stick with chain/crisper shifting. The R&M price tag of $9-$12k will keep the market small. These are the factors that have precluded commodity status, not that the bits are so difficult to integrate.

I also imagine the R&M press release is largely directed at continental Europe, their principle market. Service is already much better in Europe.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
I also imagine the R&M press release is largely directed at continental Europe, their principle market. Service is already much better in Europe.
Points well taken.

I don't know the actual numbers but I would guess that Europe is 75% of Riese & Muller's market, USA is 10% & the rest of the world is15%.
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
To the rest of your points, I largely agree. Before ebikes, Rohloff was a niche product, and now on ebikes, it’s still a niche product, not an engineering miracle to integrate with belt+frame. The real reason it isn’t widespread is because 1) most ppl don’t need a Rohloff 2) the big boys at Trek, Specialized undoubtedly took a pass on an additional “service partner” that demands you rebuild a wheel just to send the hub hundreds/thousands of miles to pull out and press in two seals that are external to the hub Itself. I have seen videos posted here on the process without the disclaimer that the end user is unable to obtain the seals or the tools that make the process simple.
EMTB will largely stick with chain/crisper shifting.

I must be a bit of a fan because nothing has gone wrong with mine.
BTW, here's what you're missing out on with a Rohloff manual shift, i also shift about as quick as this on my R&M:
Gear shifting from 2:30
 

dblhelix

Well-Known Member
I must be a bit of a fan because nothing has gone wrong with mine.
BTW, here's what you're missing out on with a Rohloff manual shift, i also shift about as quick as this on my R&M:
Gear shifting from 2:30

You’re making my point as all Rohloff R&Ms are equipped with E-14. Yours must be 2017-2018. And the Levo conversion performed by Rohloff-AUS is manual as well. Has it caught on?
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
You’re making my point as all Rohloff R&Ms are equipped with E-14. Yours must be 2017-2018. And the Levo conversion performed by Rohloff-AUS is manual as well. Has it caught on?
Has the ease of shifting with a manual/external gear mech caught on or the levo conversion?
Yes mine is a 2018 R&M.
I've never used an E14 but i can't image it could be anywhere near as flexible & fluid as the manual (which requires a bit of training but get's better & better with age).
My twist shifter rubber is worn and when it's wet with bare hands it's too slippery, ok with gloves though. Must get a new one.
 

Jay Kay

Active Member
Still to this day i only see R&M & Nicolai producing full suspension Rohloff/Gates CDX ebikes, any others?
I’m curious to know who innovated first. Both R&M and Nicolai are touted as industry leading innovators, yet they both do the same thing (Nicolai’s rear suspension is more ‘complex). One surely copied the innovation of the other to start with? So who did the Bosch, FS, Rohloff + Gates first?