Internal geared hub + mid drive ?p

Dan51

New Member
I see in Europe it is common to find internal geared hubs or Nuvinci hubs paired with Mid drive motors. I don't see a selection in America. I'm thinking more maintenance free. What's up ?
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
We think this is the ideal setup, and will be launching our bikes soon.
Given Sondors success, cost seems paramont. If you could associate the beach with IGH, you could sell 10,000 at the drop of a hat! How will you make an elegant IGH resonate with consumer desire and benefit? It is merely a feature, not a clearcut benefit!

The same worn-out, song-and-dance the bicycle industry has been PUSHING: look at a long list of components. The consumer is unmoved because benefits are experienced, not comprehended. Does the whole industry wear component/feature blinders? I might feel dumbfounded by confusing strings of XX, 00, 11, 99. But that does not make me feel any better? Geez!

HPC Trailblazer comes to mind immediately. 14 gear Rohloff, no less. Rohloff warranty to 100Nm.

I think the tradeoffs can be made convincingly either way. Cost probably carries greatest weight. Most consumers are not sophisticated enough to appreciate the engineering. Consumers are psychologically biased by different "anchors", motor, battery, brakes, etc... Consumers have difficulty relating the feature to the benefits.

  1. I doubt you could effectively differentiate your product on that feature . More like a nice-to-have.
  2. unsprung weight is a poor design tradeoff for full suspension bikes.
  3. brake Compatability issues.
  4. less flexibility regarding gear optimization.
  5. potential hub constraints.
  6. you could use planetary gears in the chainwheel to achieve similar results.
  7. nuVinci may have issues at some torque levels.
  8. Economies of scale.
 
Last edited:

Hong

Active Member
Appreciate your enthusiasm Mike, but you're talking about a $599 ebike and a $1499 hub. ;)
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
Appreciate your enthusiasm Mike, but you're talking about a $599 ebike and a $1499 hub. ;)
The trailblazer deluxe lists for $6K.

People want an accessible eBike, that is why Sondors is outrageously popular. Fear motivates purchases into the brave new world of hi-tech bikes. $600 is not too much to gamble on this newfangled bike. The consumer is thinking that $6K might be worthwhile for some rich people. They would like to feel comfortable and worthy enough to spend thousands. Consumers fear this unknown Brave New World of electric bikes.

The beauty of Sondors is the bike is totally stripped down to the absolute minimum. People can relate to simplicity, because complexity confuses. The same fearful consumers would also love a clear upgrade path. A safe way to spend thousands on a compelling, but scary, risky idea.

The bicycle industry was proven feature/component blind by Sondors.

I spent a year in Switzerland during high school. The Swiss watch industry was destroyed by the electronic watch. The same industrial feature-benefit blindness. The Swiss misconception was: " you no spend thousand dollar for gold Rollex? Silly plastic, $25 watch, no benefit! Lookie, very loooong list. microscopic gear! Wear funny eyepiece. See for yourself: No bad friction, shiny jewelry, prestige."

Now tell me, just who in the world of gears, springs and cogs was confused? Who was the true visionary?
 

Hong

Active Member
Still plenty of people buying $10k watches. Lots more people are happy with their $25 watch too. There's no right or wrong answer, having more choices is great for the consumer. Hope you're happy with your ebike Mike.
 

Mike leroy

Active Member
Still plenty of people buying $10k watches. Lots more people are happy with their $25 watch too. There's no right or wrong answer, having more choices is great for the consumer. Hope you're happy with your ebike Mike.
I disagree. Both right and wrong choices exist for every consumer based on benefits, rather than components/features.

What benefits did the Ford Model T provide?
  1. Economy - afford their dream
  2. Enjoyment - on Sunday drives
  3. Ease - of transport relative to horses
  4. Endurance - from countryside to city
  5. Elegance - very little. The Lincoln introduced luxury.
  6. Excitement - adventure to US National Parks and beaches.
An IGH, as a feature, does contribute to elegance. Consumers recognize elegant design instantly, not concealed features inside the rear hub. Consumers have even greater difficulty relating the cost of a $1400 Rohloff hub with any of the other benefits, except the lack of economic benefit.

So, an expensive IGH is a source of cognitive dissonance. The connection between features and benefits is too difficult to understand. Perhaps, a consumer might instantly experience ease benefits on a steep hill from a Rohloff. The benefit might justify the cost, when an insurmountable hill is conquered. But that is putting the cart before the horse -- putting the features before the benefits.
 
Last edited:

Mike leroy

Active Member
What benefits can an electric bicycle provide? The successful business communicates consumer benefits. The Model T analogy follows:
  1. Economy - afford their dream
  2. Enjoyment - on Sunday rides in the park
  3. Ease - of transport relative to cars
  4. Endurance - from home to work/store
  5. Elegance - you styling, bro!
  6. Excitement - go faster than cars and buses
The whole bicycle morphs into Ford-Quadracycle, which morphs into Model T has come full circle. A beautiful irony. The bicycle gives birth to the automobile. Now major automobile companies -- including Ford -- are producing electric bicycles!

Benefits are one side of the coin. The second side of the coin is Cost, Risk, Bias and Results. The tradeoffs are expressed as a ratio -- Benefits divided by Cost -- is the Cost-Benefit ratio. Ultimately, the consumer is willing to take a certain amount of risk for some gain. Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Peace Prize for his Prospect Theory, which explains consumer psychology.
 
Last edited: