Internally Geared Hubs (IGH) systems - Rohloff vs Pinion

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
This video discusses two of the most reliable IGH systems i.e Rohloff and Pinion.

There are other systems that re specifically made for E-bike systems like Enviolo, Shimano Nexus Inter -5 but the author decided to speak about Rohloff and Pinion.

 

RPB

New Member
how much are you going to pay for Rohloff hub and what frame sizes will it fit. Will it hold up to a 750W mid motor
 

Rás Cnoic

Well-Known Member
I was thinking the same - I've been wondering if Pinion R&D are experimenting with a motor-gearbox combination, under the same casing, if that is even possible! It would seem ideal to keep everything simple, but sadly would probably be very heavy & bulky.
 

scrambler

Active Member
What a pity Pinion cannot be used with a mid-drive motor...
First let me say, that I do think the Pinion and especially the C1.9XR would be the best gearing system for an e-Bikes by far.
It combines all the benefits of an IGH like the Rohloff or Kindernay, with a comparable gear range, but with a more appropriate number of gears (14 is just too many for an e-Bike), and suspends the weight at the center of the bike.

As far as using it with a mid-drive it is totally feasible, all you need is separate drive chains for motor and pedaling.

The great benefit of separate drive chains is that you get the best of both worlds.
When using the bike with the throttle in motorcycle mode, you don’t have to bother with gears, and get the full benefit of a single gear electric motor.
When using pedal assist, you are not putting any extra strain on the pedaling drive train, so you can ultimately have a motor as powerful as you wish, without worrying about the pedaling drive train not taking the beating.

There has been two ways this is done:

1) Having a motor chain between the motor and the rear wheel, and a pedaling chain between the Pinion and the motor.
That was the solution taken by the early Neematic prototype, and made that bike the perfect combination of EMTB and light motorcycle, especially as they had also implemented a torque based pedal assist. Unfortunately after being acquired by UBCO, they dropped the pedaling drive train and made the bike a light motorcycle only.
https://lumberjac.com/2017/07/neematic-fr1-e-bike/

2) Having the Motor chain on the left side, and the pedaling chain on the right side.
That is the solution used on the two bikes below.

A) The LMX-64 which with a 2,500+W motor (with belt option), a regular derailleur on the right, and with Torque and speed sensor pedal assist in the pedaling BB. There is an owner thread on Endless-Sphere where users are raving about the solution the bike provide.
https://lmxbikes.com/en/all-terrain-emtbs/220-182-lmx-64H-enduro-emtb.html

B) The SEM Venom that uses a similar setup with a 4kW motor, but has not implemented pedal assist (although they could).
https://www.sem-e-mtbike.com/evolution/

Both the LMX and the SEM could implement a pinion gearbox instead of a derailleur in the bottom of their frame.

There is one catch however, and it is the Torque based sensing pedal assist.
Today these 3rd party sensors mostly exist as integrated in the Bottom Bracket, and so if you have a Pinion gearbox, you have no place to install one. There use to be a chain mounted system called the BEAMTS that is no longer available, and there is also a TMM4 torque plate that can be installed on the rear dropout, but is proprietary.
So at this point there is no clear solution for a good torque based pedal assist if you use a Pinion Gearbox, and that is the biggest issue (in my book).

But is someone was to solve that issue, or Pinion had the genius idea to integrate a sensor in their gearbox, it would allow for the perfect EMTB light motorcycle hybrid to be made :)
 
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scrambler

Active Member

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Some interesting Pinion information at about 20 minutes of this recent video:
This is the Dream Bikepacking Bike! Post GDMBR Review of the Priority 600x - YouTube

Really fascinating!
The fact that Pinion offers a 5yr warranty says something about their drive system. Looking forward to learning more about their new gearbox.
Also, super interesting that Gates belt is only 1% of the Gates corporation transaction. In this decade, we will see a LOT more bike OEMs adopting gates belt drive systems for E-bikes.
 

vincent

Well-Known Member
wow what an awesome video, cannot wait to have a pinion with hub drive!

thanks for posting that link over50

also want a wren fork now lol
 

Deacon Blues

Well-Known Member
@Ravi, didn't you mention in one of your posts that you have a friend in Asia who has built an ebike prototype with a pinion gearbox and hub motor, but the problem is it's heavy?
 
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Over50

Well-Known Member
Really fascinating!
The fact that Pinion offers a 5yr warranty says something about their drive system. Looking forward to learning more about their new gearbox.
Also, super interesting that Gates belt is only 1% of the Gates corporation transaction. In this decade, we will see a LOT more bike OEMs adopting gates belt drive systems for E-bikes.
Speaking of fascinating videos - I posted another one in this existing thread. Really fascinating insight on how bike/luggage setup can impact efficiency:

Choosing efficient clothing for your bike tour | Electric Bike Forums - Q&A, Help, Reviews and Maintenance (electricbikereview.com)
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
@Ravi, didn't you mention in one of your posts that you have a friend in Asia who has built an ebike prototype with a pinion gearbox and hub motor, but the problem is it's heavy?

There is no problem actually and the bike weighs in the range of 55lbs total with 48V,17Ah pack.
We did not pursue the Pinion route this year because we are heavily invested in the Bosch system and we are trying to perfect that. Proper designing and testing of a few Pinion prototypes would cost us upwards of $40K. So, once we are up to speed in 2021, we will work on a different project. There is a saying ..." The hunter who chases two rabbits will catch neither" ... we did not want to be that hunter!
The pinion bike is definitely on our radar and our manufacturer has great experience producing Pinion frames for companies like Zerode, which produces some of the finest full-suspension + Gates belt + Pinion bikes in the world.


@Over50,
Thanks for that.
I am one of Alee Denham's Patreon supporters and saw this video about a few weeks ago. Really amazing stuff. Poor guy, he was stuck in Mexico for a while and his mom was dying off cancer in Australia. I think he just made it back.
Highly recommend his channel. He speaks from experience and deserves a more discerning audience like yourself.

1607798729258.jpeg
 

Terry777

Active Member
There is no problem actually and the bike weighs in the range of 55lbs total with 48V,17Ah pack.
We did not pursue the Pinion route this year because we are heavily invested in the Bosch system and we are trying to perfect that. Proper designing and testing of a few Pinion prototypes would cost us upwards of $40K. So, once we are up to speed in 2021, we will work on a different project. There is a saying ..." The hunter who chases two rabbits will catch neither" ... we did not want to be that hunter!
The pinion bike is definitely on our radar and our manufacturer has great experience producing Pinion frames for companies like Zerode, which produces some of the finest full-suspension + Gates belt + Pinion bikes in the world.


@Over50,
Thanks for that.
I am one of Alee Denham's Patreon supporters and saw this video about a few weeks ago. Really amazing stuff. Poor guy, he was stuck in Mexico for a while and his mom was dying off cancer in Australia. I think he just made it back.
Highly recommend his channel. He speaks from experience and deserves a more discerning audience like yourself.

View attachment 74046
That looks like a well thought out system. Cool.... 👍