Is that new electric bicycle your looking at legal?

6zfshdb

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Northeast Pennsylvania
Im not sure what the answer is, but adopting Canada's 32km/h regulations while keep prohibitions or speed limits on ALL bikes in busy mixed used areas doesn't seem to come with too many drawbacks.
Perhaps a step in the right direction but any law is only as good as it's enforcement.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Perhaps a step in the right direction but any law is only as good as it's enforcement.
Please take a few minutes and read HR727. An assist speed cut-off at 32kph makes no sense given that rider power has always limited bike speed. We should keep in mind there is a lot of historical data that proves bikes have been ridden by most riders to speeds in the 45 to 50kph range when going down even mild inclines (this matters because it proves that bikes have been going faster than 32kph for a very long time). HR727 LSEB definition details a power limit above 20mph that in effect limits bike speeds as power has always limited human power generated speed on a bike ... that makes far better sense than assist speed cut-offs but sadly few people really critically think. The biggest benefit of having a motor on a bike is to flatten hills so that average speeds are increased but the majority of safety risks is always going to be on downhills where top speeds of any bike will be much faster than 32kph.

Obviously on mixed us paths where bikes and pedestrians share the space riders must ride at a safe speed which is likely to be less than 32kph (that does not mean we should reduce assist speeds to the ridiculous EU limit of 25kph...that makes no sense unless the goal was to not have ebikes get people out of cars).
 

rtp

Active Member
Region
USA
The limiting factor is gearing and wind resistance. Not programing. The two with motors and batteries do about 32 Mph. But you couldn't comfortably maintain that cadence on the flats. That is about 51 or 52 Kph. Good enough for safely clearing an intersection with cars. Bikes feel stable at 20 Mph. They really are not designed for high speeds. 45K is about the limit of the comfort zone in my opinion. I just now purchased two new bikes to convert. His and hers. The total for both with matching racks and after tax was $1120 US. That is about 986 euro for the pair. IPA beer paid for delivery by a kid at the bike shop today after work in two hours. I will upgrade the brakes when I install the mid-drives. I hope this inspires others to take some risks and have fun. The men's white one is getting a black rack.
@PedalUma What mid-drive motors are you using?
 

Nomad

Well-Known Member
So speaking along the lines of is it legal for most part if the assisted speed is over 28 mph technically it's not here in the US. Again that doesn't mean your going to get stopped.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Petaluma, CA
@PedalUma What mid-drive motors are you using?
I like the Torque Sensing ones. It makes for a cleaner build. This is what good electric bikes look like.
 

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AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
So speaking along the lines of is it legal for most part if the assisted speed is over 28 mph technically it's not here in the US. Again that doesn't mean your going to get stopped.
Agree. To stay out of trouble you should ride in a conservative/sane manner, and it really helps to know/get some guidance on local enforcement.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
So speaking along the lines of is it legal for most part if the assisted speed is over 28 mph technically it's not here in the US. Again that doesn't mean your going to get stopped.
Per HR727 technically there is no sale or use requirement for LSEBs to have a cease of assist at 20 or 28mph. There is a power limit above 20mph defined by the 170lb rider / level surface / 20mph which is from 300-350w. This was devised by a PhD electrical engineer who understood that power limits the speed of any bike and this limit essentially keeps most riders in the historical speed of bikes (over 95% of riders will hit speeds of 28mph+ on rides when downhill speeds are considered (people that praise support for assist speed limits at 20mph always claim that downhill speeds are not relevant which is about as bizarre as any argument I can think of). When you consider that what ebikes essentially do is increase average riding speeds by increasing the speed of going up a hill the claim that downhill speeds don't matter becomes even less relevant. Going up a hill is typically not where accidents occur so increasing the climbing speed is really not less safe and since downhill speeds are limited by rider nerve only an ebike really isn't a factor in the accidents that happen on descents.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Per HR727 technically there is no sale or use requirement for LSEBs to have a cease of assist at 20 or 28mph. There is a power limit above 20mph defined by the 170lb rider / level surface / 20mph which is from 300-350w. This was devised by a PhD electrical engineer who understood that power limits the speed of any bike and this limit essentially keeps most riders in the historical speed of bikes (over 95% of riders will hit speeds of 28mph+ on rides when downhill speeds are considered (people that praise support for assist speed limits at 20mph always claim that downhill speeds are not relevant which is about as bizarre as any argument I can think of). When you consider that what ebikes essentially do is increase average riding speeds by increasing the speed of going up a hill the claim that downhill speeds don't matter becomes even less relevant. Going up a hill is typically not where accidents occur so increasing the climbing speed is really not less safe and since downhill speeds are limited by rider nerve only an ebike really isn't a factor in the accidents that happen on descents.
You beat this drum incessantly. You post time and time again yourself when no one contributes to your threads. You even sued the US Government to try and have them get you to listen and 'repeal' the 3 class system. You were rejected. God almighty you are a religious fanatic on this subject... Or... more accurately a dog worrying a bone.

If you took this level of stubbornness to a useful, non-tilting-at-windmills direction your contribution to the ebike community could be worth something.

Find something useful to do with a chance of success. This 'pre-empt' issue is dead.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Petaluma, CA
You beat this drum incessantly. You post time and time again yourself when no one contributes to your threads. You even sued the US Government to try and have them get you to listen and 'repeal' the 3 class system. You were rejected. God almighty you are a religious fanatic on this subject... Or... more accurately a dog worrying a bone.

If you took this level of stubbornness to a useful, non-tilting-at-windmills direction your contribution to the ebike community could be worth something.

Find something useful to do with a chance of success. This 'pre-empt' issue is dead.
 

Code54

Member
The whole class system is sort of silly in my view. I rode a bike trail yesterday with my wife and we both were on class 3 bikes, Average speed 11.2, top speed 22 (VERY steep short downhill section of road to get to trail). Did the class matter at all? Nope. Just have a speed limit and be done with it. It is like saying a Corvette isn't allowed on a residential road since it COULD go over the 25 mile per speed limit.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Petaluma, CA
The whole class system is sort of silly in my view. I rode a bike trail yesterday with my wife and we both were on class 3 bikes, Average speed 11.2, top speed 22 (VERY steep short downhill section of road to get to trail). Did the class matter at all? Nope. Just have a speed limit and be done with it. It is like saying a Corvette isn't allowed on a residential road since it COULD go over the 25 mile per speed limit.
The '67 Corvette was a three speed with 300 Hp. Now they are almost 500 Hp and are still allowed on a residential street. Good point.
 

Nomad

Well-Known Member
The '67 Corvette was a three speed with 300 Hp. Now they are almost 500 Hp and are still allowed on a residential street. Good point.
Remember there are classes on road and licenses as well so there is a point to some of it. Believe me I want jonny law to have as little do with it as possible.
 

Code54

Member
Remember there are classes on road and licenses as well so there is a point to some of it. Believe me I want jonny law to have as little do with it as possible.
Agreed, by not based on top vehicle speed. Let's face it, I don't think there is any vehicle currently available that is not capable of breaking the speed limit on 99% of the roads in the US.
 

Nomad

Well-Known Member
Agreed, by not based on top vehicle speed. Let's face it, I don't think there is any vehicle currently available that is not capable of breaking the speed limit on 99% of the roads in the US.
yes for a rode vehicle but the rub is making a bicycle have a speedometer among other things but having a max assisted speed not a max speed starts to make sence.
 

john peck

Well-Known Member
There it is in some places it's just to restrictive but on the other hand there is a point when it's not bicycle anymore and should be treated as such. Emb network just did a thing about this. The numbers here in the states are pretty good thou I like to see just a tiny bit higher but can't honesty justify much higher before it should be considered something else.
Given the vast expanse of Australia those limits make no sense at all. I think gas powered bicycles
should also be legal to at least 20 mph,(under 50cc). By comparison their mileage is much better
than cars & initial carbon footptint far less. This would also make sense in the US since it might
bolster our dead travel & tourism industry with minimal eco-impact & the traveller with more to
spend. Interstates at 70 mph are not really a fun way to get around. Not need to go so far if one
can enjoy pleasant paths & back roads. Distance here are still limited by current ebike range.
I have built a hybrid gas/electric bike with a range that greatly exceeds 200 mpg.
 
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PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Petaluma, CA
This is how those two new class 3 bikes turned out.
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