Is This Battery Pack for Real ($106) ??

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
The Panasonic 22F's in my hoverboard packs, vintage 2016, were rated for 10A per cell. and in a 10S-2P config, do put out an honest 20A. Maybe the better generic 18650 chinese cells can match that 5 years later.

My 13S-2P 21700 pack has a BMS with a 15A rating, but the pack put out 25.5A into my 750W BBS02 motor. Voltage sag was 5.5 volts from 54.2V too. Not too good, but it was not intended to put put 25A. I think that's how it got unbalanced, because it's been anout 10 days since i rebalanced it, and it's fine.
I agree... It is possible and really not cutting edge at this point, so I have a smidge of hope. I have my BBS02B set for 20a max and rarely hit that unless I really slam the throttle. And even then it's only for a few seconds before it levels out around 15a if I keep pushing it.
I'm bored with a $100 burning a hole in my pocket so I figured this can be a good exercise of the mind. My real goal is to see how my bike rides with the battery in the triangle rather than the rear rack. It's really not much of an issue... but like I said, I'm bored looking for problems 🙃
 
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tomjasz

Well-Known Member
LiFePO4 average cycle life 3,000 - 5,000 cycles
Heavy and bulky. Great for a delta trike or trailer battery. Already too heavy, eBikes become even heavier.

Although LiFePO₄ may charge at 3.7-3.8V, discharge is a moderate 3.3-3.2V.
 
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George S.

Well-Known Member
Is This Battery for Real??

shorturl.at/suIOQ

I ordered this battery the end of March. It arrived last week, around May 13th. The package simply showed up with a DHL label on it. There was never any tracking. The cost was about what the ad states, plus sales tax. I guess Ali is enough of a monster that US states make sure they pay tax.

The battery pack contains 13 cells, but they are a larger 21700 cell, not the standard 18650. There are 13 cells in series and 3 in parallel. The claimed capacity of these relatively large cells is 5,000 mah, or 5 Amp. With 3 sets, this is a 48 volt and 15 AH battery. This works out to around 650 watt hours. Since 48 volts is a little high as an average useable voltage You shouldn’t just multiply amp hours by the nominal voltage. The watt hours will also depend on the low voltage cutoff point in the specific BMS you have. For the test I ran, the BMS cut at 42 volts, which is not the end of the battery, exactly. I use a watt hour meter, watt meter, and precision voltmeter on my bike. This is useful information to judge your battery as you ride.

In the initial rundown test, the battery was charged to 4.2 volts per cell, which is the normal standard for this type of Lithium cell. Most chargers will list 54.6 volts as the terminal voltage for a 48 volt pack. The rundown test used a 48v inverter connected to a 200 watt load. The test ran until the LVC on the inverter shut the inverter down, around 42 volts. The total watt hours at the end of the test was 626 watt hours. The voltage recovered to 42.5 volts or so. It’s hard to get useable amounts of power as the battery drops to 43 volts or so. Worrying about these garbage watts is not worth my efforts. If you were riding an ebike you would be drawing 200 watts, a useable amount of power, until the capacity was depleted. All of this is based on a few test cycles, which were consistent. This battery could supply 700 watts, full legal power, with a fresher charge. That’s all I tested. There are a lot of nuances to using a battery on an ebike. You need a cell that can supply the legal 750 watts. As the battery depletes, you need a cell that still provide useful voltages and amps to the end, or the practical end. These cells do the job.

Conclusions

1. The 21700 cell allows for a small pack and a very useful form factor. This pack, 600 wh, is the standard for more premium ebikes, but the new cell saves some space.

2. The cell that LK is using seems to be fine for standard ebike uses. It may not be a high power cell, but I don’t test for that.

3. There is no way to know how long the pack might last. There are safety measures that can be incorporated into any ebike pack, and it’s unlikely this pack is much more than robotic spot welded cells with a BMS. At some point I might cut the pack open but I doubt it. It’s a very nice looking pack. I do all my charging outside with solar.

4. There seems to be no way to trace where these cells may actually come from. Some say this 21700 is a re-wrap of Tesla cells, probably cells that graded below what Tesla wants. Tesla makes batteries in China. When people say not to buy Chinese cells, it’s meaningless. Is an LG cell made in China inferior to one made in Korea. As Joe Biden said, the Chinese want to dominate the EV battery market. The ebike market is a rounding error, in all this. China will develop this kind of cell and they will perfect the manufacturing. If this isn’t the breakthrough ‘Hundred Dollar Pack’ it doesn’t matter. You can pick up stuff from Battery Hookup or Jag35. You can buy LFP on Ebay. Certainly if you DIY and spot weld you can get a great cheap pack for low dollars.
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In some ways, China is laying down a marker with this pack. They are saying they can make a nice, perfectly usable ebike pack for $100. Maybe this pack shows what they will do or maybe it shows what they can do.

They can sell it directly. They did this with large prismatic LFP cells starting a year ago. Their position has only gotten stronger. That was EVE, and now EVE is supplying to Tesla.


I’ve been using this battery pack on my BBS ebike, a DIY conversion, for 35 days. I haven’t encountered any issues. I’ve run it down to 40% remaining, and the voltage sags but it’s not terrible. The capacity works for me. At some point the sags at high draw trip the BMS, even if the battery is not dead or near dead.

I wish I knew who made the cells in this pack (21700). Battery Hookup will sell you the ‘official’ Tesla 21700 cells for $300 per 100. There are 39 cells (13s x 3p) in my pack so around 40 cells. Multiply that out and the cell price is close. There are other 21700 retail prices on the web, notable the Lishen. It’s not hard to see how the price point of $100 for the pack could be done, using automated equipment.

I follow the Chinese ‘Brands’ as brands more and more. LK is a huge retail front on Ali, with just massive different products. Right now the hot stuff on YouTube is big cell LFP, like 280 AH prismatics. There are several suppliers, but EVE and Lishen are the names mentioned most often. LK has quite a bit of feedback in this category.

The LK brand can be found on DH Gate. DHG is a competitor to Ali. I found an LK ebike pack with the same 21700 cells, but 30AH and around $180. Free shipping. This is a 12 pound pack that would deliver a lot of amps for a long time.

It’s odd that the 21700 cell is rarely mentioned in US ebike pack specs. The cell is associated with Tesla and Panasonic, but the Chinese began mass manufacture in 2017-18. Certainly BAK, Lishen, EVE, FST, and at least 5 others can be found on lists of 21700 companies. The official Chinese new agency said, in 2017, that companies were blindly following Tesla. There’s always an undercurrent of tension.

Some China companies are trying to brand in the US. Their pricing is somewhere between the Ali prices and US ebike company prices. Unit Power is on Amazon with a 20AH 48 volt pack, in a nice top tube case, for $350. They suggest FST cells and give a good account of how they make the pack. The FST (18650) is on Ali and the listing says they can supply 5 million a month. Obviously, this is BEV auto stuff.

lk review.png
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
I’ve been using this battery pack on my BBS ebike, a DIY conversion, for 35 days. I haven’t encountered any issues. I’ve run it down to 40% remaining, and the voltage sags but it’s not terrible. The capacity works for me. At some point the sags at high draw trip the BMS, even if the battery is not dead or near dead.

I wish I knew who made the cells in this pack (21700). Battery Hookup will sell you the ‘official’ Tesla 21700 cells for $300 per 100. There are 39 cells (13s x 3p) in my pack so around 40 cells. Multiply that out and the cell price is close. There are other 21700 retail prices on the web, notable the Lishen. It’s not hard to see how the price point of $100 for the pack could be done, using automated equipment.

I follow the Chinese ‘Brands’ as brands more and more. LK is a huge retail front on Ali, with just massive different products. Right now the hot stuff on YouTube is big cell LFP, like 280 AH prismatics. There are several suppliers, but EVE and Lishen are the names mentioned most often. LK has quite a bit of feedback in this category.

The LK brand can be found on DH Gate. DHG is a competitor to Ali. I found an LK ebike pack with the same 21700 cells, but 30AH and around $180. Free shipping. This is a 12 pound pack that would deliver a lot of amps for a long time.

It’s odd that the 21700 cell is rarely mentioned in US ebike pack specs. The cell is associated with Tesla and Panasonic, but the Chinese began mass manufacture in 2017-18. Certainly BAK, Lishen, EVE, FST, and at least 5 others can be found on lists of 21700 companies. The official Chinese new agency said, in 2017, that companies were blindly following Tesla. There’s always an undercurrent of tension.

Some China companies are trying to brand in the US. Their pricing is somewhere between the Ali prices and US ebike company prices. Unit Power is on Amazon with a 20AH 48 volt pack, in a nice top tube case, for $350. They suggest FST cells and give a good account of how they make the pack. The FST (18650) is on Ali and the listing says they can supply 5 million a month. Obviously, this is BEV auto stuff.

View attachment 90658
Cut the bitch open... That's what I intend to do when it arrives.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
Hold my beer. 🍺

The other thing.......
18650 average cycle life 300-500 charge and discharge cycles
LiFePO4 average cycle life 3,000 - 5,000 cycles
Heavy and bulky. Great for a delta trike or trailer battery. Already too heavy, eBikes become even heavier.

Although LiFePO₄ may charge at 3.7-3.8V, discharge is a moderate 3.3-3.2V.

I bought a 48v 10ah LiFePO4 battery on Amazon from btrbattery. It is heavy and bulky, they clearly made note of that in the description. Weighs ~10#, about the same as a 48v 15ah battery that I have from a different seller. I use it with a 48v 750w TSDZ2 with an 18a controller - it performs well so the low discharge rate isn't a negative for me. I've read that LiFePO4 batteries hold a fairly steady voltage for most of the capacity then suddenly drop off and this has been my experience also. So it is difficult to judge how much residual capacity is left in the battery based on voltage. They are supposed to have more stable chemistry which is why I bought it. I have no complaints but given that I dislike carrying extra weight a regular lithium battery might have been a better choice for me.
 

HansTrio

Member
Region
USA
I bought a 48v 10ah LiFePO4 battery on Amazon from btrbattery. It is heavy and bulky, they clearly made note of that in the description. Weighs ~10#, about the same as a 48v 15ah battery that I have from a different seller. I use it with a 48v 750w TSDZ2 with an 18a controller - it performs well so the low discharge rate isn't a negative for me. I've read that LiFePO4 batteries hold a fairly steady voltage for most of the capacity then suddenly drop off and this has been my experience also. So it is difficult to judge how much residual capacity is left in the battery based on voltage. They are supposed to have more stable chemistry which is why I bought it. I have no complaints but given that I dislike carrying extra weight a regular lithium battery might have been a better choice for me.

Yes.
LiFePo4 shines in it's ultra flat discharge "curve". From 90% SOC to 30% SOC it will deliver a constant current and voltage that is nearly flat.
The other positive is long life. If you charge your LiFePO4 to only 80% and discharge it to only 40% SOC, it can last nearly a lifetime (yours) and you're still getting almost all the capacity from it because it drops off sharply above or below those SOC states..
Thousands upon thousands of cycles.

Weight is relative. Compared to an equivalent capacity in Lead Acid, it is very lightweight. There was a time Lead acid was the only game in town.
I too lament the weight nonetheless. I have a 48v 20Ah (supposedly) LiFePO4 pack and it is heavy. 14lbs to be exact. (I just weighed it)
Being that heavy means i have to give careful consideration to the weight distribution on my bike. I have a rear hub motor kit coming so this battery will need to be mounted as far forward as possible to try to keep things evenly distributed.

Today I will run some high current load draw capacity tests on it. At 14lbs, it "should" have enough "meat" to deliver that capacity. We'll see.
The other beauty of this power pack is that I live in an area prone to hurricanes and guess what this battery is good for other than ebike power?
Yep.....emergency power for the house. Nearly a Killowatt available from this one battery.
 
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harryS

Well-Known Member
I've concluded that my shrinkwrapped 13S-2P chinese 21700 pack works fine as long as I keep the current within its 15A limits. It will try to deliver 25A if demanded though, which I found unbalances one cell group. Oh well, better to use it with my little motors, or upgrade the BMS.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
I've concluded that my shrinkwrapped 13S-2P chinese 21700 pack works fine as long as I keep the current within its 15A limits.
My little folder with a 250W BBS01B runs like a champ on an EM3ev battery from 2014. I have a C963(unobtanium) that shows watts being consumed. It's a sipper and can carry my fat arse at 20MPH.
In eco mode or tour mode there's little to no sag. I'm liking my little BBSxx motors more and more. So much so that I've sold all three of my BBSHD kits.
 

harryS

Well-Known Member
Nice test, Hans. Glad that other people understand C rates affects AH. Yes, that is a heavy pack. It's a hard assignment to mount a brick shaped object like that on a bicycle and still make it look good.
 

HansTrio

Member
Region
USA
Nice test, Hans. Glad that other people understand C rates affects AH. Yes, that is a heavy pack. It's a hard assignment to mount a brick shaped object like that on a bicycle and still make it look good.

Thanks Harry.
lol. You're right. I'll post up a picture after I get the bike all put together. Maybe just in time for Halloween (scary)
 

Art Deco

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
Thanks Harry.
lol. You're right. I'll post up a picture after I get the bike all put together. Maybe just in time for Halloween (scary)
Theft The big battery on a rear rack can be concealed ( trunk bag and panniers). The big bump on the downtube is forever.
 

HansTrio

Member
Region
USA
Theft The big battery on a rear rack can be concealed ( trunk bag and panniers). The big bump on the downtube is forever.

If I were going to park it somewhere, I'd have a backpack and the battery would come with.
Do people commute to work or go to the mall on one of these...and leaving it totally unattended.and out of sight?
 

Art Deco

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
Some do it every day. Think commuters who don't work in an office, or apartment dwellers without a garage. I don't do it.
 

BarnBoy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Pleasanton, CA
You all are welcome to read about my EVG battery pack project where I discovered crappy packs and one good one from Laudation. Since someone above commented about opening it up, see photos of a Laudation pack below (16Ah). WAY safer than Okoman (anode rings)! And please note the actual cell used is as advertised on ePay. For me, so far excellent results for the price (44 miles and still more than 60%)!!! More miles to come…

All two 7s5p packs fit nicely inside my EVG case with room for meters!
-BB

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03981B7B-9D30-43BB-8F46-BDFC9A125FB6.png3F27FE70-48E7-4968-8382-81AC2ABBF25F.png
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
Final Thoughts

I have 50 cycles on the battery. The discharge curve is not changing. I run it down 250 wh or so and the voltage ends up in the same spot, under load or recovery. The problem with a decent battery pack is that you don't think about it very much. I cut open part of the wrap to see the cells. It's just Liito Kala branding, nothing else, really.

I bought some 3800 mah cells from Battery Hookup. These are K2 cells, 'army surplus' or something, but new. They have a decent draw. These are LiFePo cells. Two rows (16s2p) of these would be a 7.5 AH battery, but the weight would be about 8 pounds. This pack could last forever. I have a 36v LiFePo from 2015 that is going strong, but it's hard to use. The problem with this LK pack, the $100 pack, is that it drags everything else down. Why should I worry about 1000 cycles with an LFP? Heck, just buy another LK in a year, or whatever. I don't see how I can build with salvage cells if this is 'out there'. For light weight, this is great. I could get 2 and have a huge capacity.

When I check the US lithium cell vendors, I see more 21700 cells, more Chinese cells. There are BAK and Lishen and a few others. If you buy 100, the price is OK. Depends on what you want and how much you want to build yourself. The advantage for Liito Kala is that they do automated building. The advantage to LiFePo4 is safety. It's hard to make it explode. So, for inside charging or just DIY, it seems like a good option. I try to charge outside with a simple solar rig.

Final Final Thought

Make of this what you will:

"Liitokala - from Finnish, meaning flying fish can fly fish in the sea. Fish in the world, traveling to the ocean a gift of God, but the flying fish was not satisfied with this, he also miss another piece of the wider world ----. From the sea embrace, embrace free sky, fly like a bird, it is a continuous dream of flying fish." (Ali Website)20210619_082131.jpg20210706_084414_2.jpg
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
I'm looking forward to your review. I have 3 batteries with Chinese cells that have been flawless with good range, so far. Another cheap battery advertised as having Samsung cells and it has been excellent as well. I'd like to try the battery you listed in a triangle bag also.
I've had the battery for a little over 2 weeks now and as far as I can tell it has been working as sold... Though I haven't done any formal testing.
Under a constant 3a load running up a 3 mile hill, voltage drop was negligible.
Under an constant 8a load for about 2 blocks worth of hills voltage drop was about 2v but performance didn't suffer.
Under 30 seconds burst of full throttle peaking at 20a and leveling off at 10a it also performed without delay or massive sag.
On a typical 18.5mi ride with plenty of hills it drops 4v from a 51v charge and uses up 140wh.
On an extended 27mi ride, mostly added flats it dropped 5v from the 51v charge and put out 188wh. I've yet to charge above 51v.
On all days the battery temp never rose above 4°f over ambient and I've been riding on some very hot and humid days.
So all things considered and that the battery pack is a 3p.. so far it is meeting my needs.
I've been a little distracted lately but I may do a full charge /discharge test for overall output.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
I've had the battery for a little over 2 weeks now and as far as I can tell it has been working as sold... Though I haven't done any formal testing.
Under a constant 3a load running up a 3 mile hill, voltage drop was negligible.
Under an constant 8a load for about 2 blocks worth of hills voltage drop was about 2v but performance didn't suffer.
Under 30 seconds burst of full throttle peaking at 20a and leveling off at 10a it also performed without delay or massive sag.
On a typical 18.5mi ride with plenty of hills it drops 4v from a 51v charge and uses up 140wh.
On an extended 27mi ride, mostly added flats it dropped 5v from the 51v charge and put out 188wh. I've yet to charge above 51v.
On all days the battery temp never rose above 4°f over ambient and I've been riding on some very hot and humid days.
So all things considered and that the battery pack is a 3p.. so far it is meeting my needs.
I've been a little distracted lately but I may do a full charge /discharge test for overall output.
Thanks for the review. Do you have a battery weight yet? I have two 48v "cheap" Amazon sourced batteries - one 15ah lithium ion and one 10ah LiFePO4. My "testing" consists of riding and occasionally checking the voltage before and after a ride they both perform well. The 10ah will provide good assist for at least 46 miles with 3400ft elevation gain (two loops of a ride I often do) while the 15ah has done three of the same 23 mile loops without stranding me. I try to fully charge my batteries but often don't because I charge right before a ride and don't have time reach a full charge. Similar excellent performance from two Amazon sourced 36v Li ion batteries (15ah and 10 ah).
The LiFePO4 battery is heavy at over 9 pounds so I'm looking for an inexpensive, lighter weight and smaller battery like the one you got.

Edit: I see your spec list indicates 2kg. I need to order one.

Edit: I checked the resting voltage on my <$160 36v 10ah battery at 35v after close to 50 miles of riding with ~3500ft elevation gain per google maps. So ~40% capacity left or maybe 20% that could be accessed without over discharging the battery.
 
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