I’ve gone down the rabbit hole and ended up here

GustyWinds

New Member
Region
USA
After deciding I really wanted an electric off road bicycle I dove in to figure out which best bang for the buck bike I could find. Naturally I came across a few usual suspects. The Luna X1 and Frey AM1000 have been my top options up this point.

Then I started reading about the motor and some of the issues with each of my top options. With the Luna there’s the smaller and lighter m600 motor that’s relatively loud and maybe can be a bit stressed with uphills. And with the Frey, there’s the beefier ultra motor, but the stock controller leaves a lot to be desired (especially with efficiency which is a big deal for me). After reading the rave reviews of the upgraded Innotrace controller, I found myself here, at ground zero.

So my question now is whether I should try and get an AM1000 and send the motor in to WW to get the controller upgrade, OR should I jump in on the WW Hydra and bypass the Frey? The appeal of the Hydra is that it’s likely a shorter wait than however long it takes to get a Frey and swap out the motor and controller. At the end of the day, how much am I actually saving after considering the shipping from China then replacing the controller once arrived? I like that WW seems to be at the cutting edge of developing the potential of this motor, but the price tag of over 5k is a tough pill to swallow.

I’m not versed whatsoever on the options (shocks, tires, etc.) that come with these bikes in general. Frankly I’m a bit in a brain fog after scouring these forums. Aside from the controller, how would a close to base Hydra compare to what Frey considers their high-end AM1000? How much does a base Hydra weigh and which components (aside from the controller) are worth upgrading?

My intended use is to explore the vast network of forest roads where I live. I’d like something light enough to carry over logs or traverse streams if needed, but with a long battery life, and plenty of power for mountainous terrain. Thanks for any insight.
 

BruceBrown

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Kansas City
I also considered the Frey and bought the Hydra. There is a big upgrade path for future products on the Hydra and the components are better.
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
After deciding I really wanted an electric off road bicycle I dove in to figure out which best bang for the buck bike I could find. Naturally I came across a few usual suspects. The Luna X1 and Frey AM1000 have been my top options up this point.

Then I started reading about the motor and some of the issues with each of my top options. With the Luna there’s the smaller and lighter m600 motor that’s relatively loud and maybe can be a bit stressed with uphills. And with the Frey, there’s the beefier ultra motor, but the stock controller leaves a lot to be desired (especially with efficiency which is a big deal for me). After reading the rave reviews of the upgraded Innotrace controller, I found myself here, at ground zero.

So my question now is whether I should try and get an AM1000 and send the motor in to WW to get the controller upgrade, OR should I jump in on the WW Hydra and bypass the Frey? The appeal of the Hydra is that it’s likely a shorter wait than however long it takes to get a Frey and swap out the motor and controller. At the end of the day, how much am I actually saving after considering the shipping from China then replacing the controller once arrived? I like that WW seems to be at the cutting edge of developing the potential of this motor, but the price tag of over 5k is a tough pill to swallow.

I’m not versed whatsoever on the options (shocks, tires, etc.) that come with these bikes in general. Frankly I’m a bit in a brain fog after scouring these forums. Aside from the controller, how would a close to base Hydra compare to what Frey considers their high-end AM1000? How much does a base Hydra weigh and which components (aside from the controller) are worth upgrading?

My intended use is to explore the vast network of forest roads where I live. I’d like something light enough to carry over logs or traverse streams if needed, but with a long battery life, and plenty of power for mountainous terrain. Thanks for any insight.
Well Gee, I may be your huckleberry. I have the AM 1000 and I put the Wattwagons motor in it. I love it. I was fine with the stock Bafang that came with the Frey but the WW motor is better. Not sure about efficiency. But my 48 v 21 Ah batteries go a long way. Further than my butt wants to go anyway. I also have a Hydra on order and should be in this next to come up batch. I just figure one ebike is not enough. This way surely one of them will be serviceable most of the time. Time wise your best bet is to go with the WW I think. Either way you are a good 4 months from getting either. As far as suspension on the WW ... stock will be just fine for your stated use. As will 1000 watts. The 2300 is overkill and actually unnecessary. My 1000 watt WW motored bike can do 30 with a 40 tooth chainring and I don't like going that fast at all. I can maintain a bit over 20 for long stretches at a comfortable cadence.
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
GW, Your other possible path could be Biktrix. Good company and they take care of their customers. Added bonus of being a N American outfit. The FS Juggernaut is very similar to the Frey. The owner Roshan puts a better tune on the Ultra motor from what people say. Couple guys have them on the board. Search Juggernaut.

I never traded motors with WW. I just ordered a new Ultra and got it in a week. One of these days I'll send in the other motor to have the controller swapped.
 

GustyWinds

New Member
Region
USA
I also considered the Frey and bought the Hydra. There is a big upgrade path for future products on the Hydra and the components are better.
That’s good to know. I also like that the owner of Watt Wagons is active here and is building bikes that people want. Just need to see if I can scrounge up $1,500 under my couch cushions.
 

GustyWinds

New Member
Region
USA
Well Gee, I may be your huckleberry. I have the AM 1000 and I put the Wattwagons motor in it. I love it. I was fine with the stock Bafang that came with the Frey but the WW motor is better. Not sure about efficiency. But my 48 v 21 Ah batteries go a long way. Further than my butt wants to go anyway. I also have a Hydra on order and should be in this next to come up batch. I just figure one ebike is not enough. This way surely one of them will be serviceable most of the time. Time wise your best bet is to go with the WW I think. Either way you are a good 4 months from getting either. As far as suspension on the WW ... stock will be just fine for your stated use. As will 1000 watts. The 2300 is overkill and actually unnecessary. My 1000 watt WW motored bike can do 30 with a 40 tooth chainring and I don't like going that fast at all. I can maintain a bit over 20 for long stretches at a comfortable cadence.
Yeah, I’m looking at the 1000w as a sweet spot for my needs.

The wait times were not something I expected when I began looking at ebikes. Do pre-owned Frey AM1000 (or similar ultra motor sub 70lb eMTBs) ever hit the used market?
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I’m looking at the 1000w as a sweet spot for my needs.

The wait times were not something I expected when I began looking at ebikes. Do pre-owned Frey AM1000 (or similar ultra motor sub 70lb eMTBs) ever hit the used market?
Doubtful. And most people selling any ebike don't want to ship.

I wouldn't be too sure you would have to switch motors. Like I said, my original Ultra from Frey was pretty good. Changing out these motors is not all that difficult. Couple of useful videos on you tube. I DO feel safer with WW than with my Frey from China as far as support. Even though I got the AM 1000 bike from a second party. Bolton Ebikes.
 

onlineaddy

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
I’d like something light enough to carry over logs or traverse streams if needed
You wouldn’t want to do much of that with any of these bikes unless you’re Arnold in his prime.

If that’s a real requirement for you, you’ll need to look at the various lighter bikes like Specialized Turbo Levo SL, Orbea Rise, etc.
 

GustyWinds

New Member
Region
USA
You wouldn’t want to do much of that with any of these bikes unless you’re Arnold in his prime.

If that’s a real requirement for you, you’ll need to look at the various lighter bikes like Specialized Turbo Levo SL, Orbea Rise, etc.
I don’t anticipate doing too much of that. But in a pinch I could lift 70lbs over most obstacles. I think I just wanted to qualify that as some less expensive options, like the new Sondors are pushing 80-90 pounds.
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
You wouldn’t want to do much of that with any of these bikes unless you’re Arnold in his prime.

If that’s a real requirement for you, you’ll need to look at the various lighter bikes like Specialized Turbo Levo SL, Orbea Rise, etc.
Yeah, I second that. AND I refuse to take my bike through much water or ride in the rain. These Bafang motors are not very water resistant. Like not at all for the wire connections.
 

Taylor57

Well-Known Member
Well Gee, I may be your huckleberry. I have the AM 1000 and I put the Wattwagons motor in it. I love it. I was fine with the stock Bafang that came with the Frey but the WW motor is better. Not sure about efficiency. But my 48 v 21 Ah batteries go a long way. Further than my butt wants to go anyway. I also have a Hydra on order and should be in this next to come up batch. I just figure one ebike is not enough. This way surely one of them will be serviceable most of the time. Time wise your best bet is to go with the WW I think. Either way you are a good 4 months from getting either. As far as suspension on the WW ... stock will be just fine for your stated use. As will 1000 watts. The 2300 is overkill and actually unnecessary. My 1000 watt WW motored bike can do 30 with a 40 tooth chainring and I don't like going that fast at all. I can maintain a bit over 20 for long stretches at a comfortable cadence.
If I'm only planning on using my CC for around town cruising, does it make sense for me to ship my motor to Pushkar for a new controller? Isn't it about a grand to do the switch?
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
If I'm only planning on using my CC for around town cruising, does it make sense for me to ship my motor to Pushkar for a new controller? Isn't it about a grand to do the switch?
Taylor my bet is you will never have to do the switch. I think Bafang or Frey have fixed the worst controller problems. Let us know when you get your bike. I think you will be fine with it.
 

GustyWinds

New Member
Region
USA
Did any of you folks purchase the harness and two years of firmware upgrades? Does this mean that I'd be stuck with the current firmware and unable to upgrade at a future date? Or could I purchase the harness and firmware at a later date if decided I wanted that upgrade?
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
Did any of you folks purchase the harness and two years of firmware upgrades? Does this mean that I'd be stuck with the current firmware and unable to upgrade at a future date? Or could I purchase the harness and firmware at a later date if decided I wanted that upgrade?
Yes but I think it's cheaper to get with the original order.
 

Acme

Well-Known Member
I originally bought the Frey CC but just like all of you found Wattwagons. I got one of Pushkar’s motors and was very impressed. Unfortunately there is some issue that it does not want to communicate with the Frey and the PAS is not working correctly. Frey is of no help at all with this so Pushkar is working with me to slowly change out small parts to find out where the conflict is. The hydra is 58 pounds with them 880wt.hr. battery which is 14 pounds lighter than my CC. luckily I got my order in November so I will be seeing it in the first batch Which hopefully will be less than a month. if you get sufficient range from the standard Bafang controller and gave never ridden a Bosch etc then I don’t think you will need to upgrade but I like to go a lot farther into the back country and I would swear I get at least 30% to 40% better efficiency with Pushkar‘s motor. I have a chance to buy a new giant with the Yamaha PWX 80nm. Bike was 53 pounds and felt good but the power was so much less and no throttle I decided I really needed to go with watt Wagons.
 
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Taylor57

Well-Known Member
I originally bought the Frey CC but just like all of you found Wattwagons. I got one of Pushkar’s motors and was very impressed. Unfortunately there is some issue that it does not want to communicate with the Frey and the PAS is not working correctly. Frey is of no help at all with this so Pushkar is working with me to slowly change out small parts to find out where the conflict is. The hydra is 58 pounds with them 880wt.hr. battery which is 14 pounds lighter than my CC. luckily I got my order in November so I will be seeing it in the first batch Which hopefully will be less than a month. if you get sufficient range from the standard Bafang controller and gave never ridden a Bosch etc then I don’t think you will need to upgrade but I like to go a lot farther into the back country and I would swear I get at least 30% to 40% better efficiency with Pushkar‘s motor. I have a chance to buy a new giant with the Yamaha PWX to any newton meter. Bike was 53 pounds and felt good but the power was so much less and no throttle I decided I really needed to go with watt Wagons.
I guess I will put my CC together, turn it on and then figure it out. Just curious to drive a mid-drive...