Just got my tracking number! EDIT: it's here. First impressions after assembly

voidedwarranty

Active Member
I started looking at ebikes back in August when my brother-in-law ordered his Super73 RX. Needless to say that 4 bike orders and 3 cancellations later, it's been a long and frustrating 7 months but the light is finally shining through the tunnel.

My bike has a tracking number! Juggernaut HD Duo with a total battery capacity of 1664wh. Really looking forward to this. Any other HD Duo owners on here have any advice or opinions on the bike? I'm all ears!
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
That has the BBSHD motor just as powerful as the ultra, older design, but it also makes less noise.
Looks like you had to pay over 1K more to get it over your Sondors you just cancelled.
But at least your wait is over just in time for spring.
 

voidedwarranty

Active Member
That has the BBSHD motor just as powerful as the ultra, older design, but it also makes less noise.
Looks like you had to pay over 1K more to get it over your Sondors you just cancelled.
But at least your wait is over just in time for spring.
Yeah that hasn't gone unnoticed. It also wasn't about the wait. My Sondors LX was due to ship the same week as the Biktrix shipped. There is no denying that the price Sondors has their Ultra bikes at is just unheard of. Nobody comes close to that.

The Sondors bike ended up being too big. They misrepresented the dimensions and when I pointed that out to them, they just made excuses for it. Excuses or not, the bike is too big, I can't comfortably fit on it even in it's lowest seat position and even if I swapped out the suspension seat post for a standard seat post. I just wish that was more clear when I ordered it 7 months ago.

The BBSHD is still plenty good, the main functional difference is the torque sensor which I'm willing to live without since this bike will be used more for casual leisure riding anyways. Plus now I have a dual battery setup good for around 100 miles.
 

voidedwarranty

Active Member
*just a refresher, this is a Juggernaut HD Duo. BBSHD motor. 52v 17.5ah main battery and 52v 14.5ah secondary battery.*

Bike arrived today! After a busy day of work and parenting I had the batteries charged and started assembly around 9pm. By 11pm everything was up and running in my garage but it was too cold and very windy to try anything out. Some quick takeaways while it's still fresh in my head.

1. The bike was shipped FedEx, arrived on a pallet laying on it's side instead of standing upright ("this side up" was not adhered to).

2. Everything was wrapped well with only a minor cosmetic blemish to the front fork.

3. The display was pre-installed to the handlebars and the grips were a nice ergonomic shape and felt as if the were locking grips even though the website said they were slip on grips.

4. Both the front and rear wheels are quick release which I was not expecting. I don't know if this is a big deal or not.

5. The rear light is fully integrated and functions as a tail light/brake light combo and is mounted to the rear rack. This was the best surprise of all. I was expecting a basic AAA battery tail light mounted to the seat post as is shown and described on their website.

6. I wasn't thrilled with the front brake bite. Maybe they need to be adjusted or maybe they will feel better after they go through a good bedding. Maybe they need to be bled, but there was a noticable difference in "bite" strength between front and rear brakes.

7. Too soon to know if the derailleur needs adjustment. The bracket looks nice and straight.

8. It came with a gear sensor installed. I wasn't expecting this and had purchased a gear sensor so now I have an extra. Better this way since now I have one less thing to install and probably mess up somehow.

9. Main battery doesn't have a dedicated on/off switch. Is this normal?

10. Second battery came with its own charger but may be a lower amp charger. I didn't read any material on the chargers.

11. All welds and frame generally look very nice and I was pleased with the overall look and size of the bike. Now I just need to find some time in my busy life to go for the first ride.
 
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voidedwarranty

Active Member
Congrats on your first Ebike, I know you waited a long time, does it fit ?
Seat goes low enough to flat foot with both feet if I want. Low enough my 5'2" wife could probably squeeze in on it. Exactly the size I wanted.

When I do my first ride write up I'll be sure to get the measuring tape out to show exactly how low and high it can go
 

Deafcat

Active Member
That's right Expat. The most reliable place to disconnect the battery power is by removing it, which is why Reention and others ditched switches and stuck to battery removal as the means of cutoff (the battery "plug" terminals are designed for thousands of contact cycles, and can also be easily replaced).
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
That's right Expat. The most reliable place to disconnect the battery power is by removing it, which is why Reention and others ditched switches and stuck to battery removal as the means of cutoff (the battery "plug" terminals are designed for thousands of contact cycles, and can also be easily replaced).
That is right. And the only way to restart these types of batteries when they shut down - say for low voltage - is to jump the BMS. Last year we had a pallet of shut down Specialized batteries at work worth $600 to $900 each. I jump started and then charged them even though that was not in my job description. A few were actual dud and these went to as a write off a guy who dismantled and recycled them. No one else knew what to do with them.
I prefer lighter batteries that have a switch. My 10.5 x 36V outran a 21.1Ah x 48 today. We got to look at the snow where it belongs - in the distant mountains. Lighter wins.
 

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voidedwarranty

Active Member
Some follow ups to my original post.

I have been enjoying this bike a lot. The motor is whisper quiet when riding off road. On pavement the only thing you hear is those aggressively knobby fat tires. On grass, you could hear a pin drop on throttle.

The derailleur shifts are still only 80% good. Not really very happy about shift quality, still working on fine tuning the indexing. 10 speeds is utterly useless where I live. I don't think I'm even using the first 4 gears anymore.

The front fork is ok (stock RST guide). I think it's making some noise, sounds like something may be loose so I'll be looking in to that. Also plan on removing the front fender, just causes too much noise.

The brakes. Where to begin. The brake have taken the top spot from the derailleur on my s*it list. Adjusted several times, bedded as directed. They make so much grinding and gurgling noise it's borderline embarrassing. The rotors are straight and there is no pad contact when off the lever. I'll be taking them out and sanding them down soon or considering a full upgrade. 160mm rotors and dual piston calipers seem too small for this roughly 100+ lb bike.

The front headlight works well but the wires had no slack. Took one week and they ripped right out the back of the headlight. No big deal. I'm very comfortable with wiring so I fixed it and added 2 inches of slack, problem solved.

The seat. Hated it. Changed it out immediately. Hate the one I replaced it with so looking for another one. Nearly 100 miles of potential range and I can't sit comfortably for more than 15. Running the tires at 20psi did take some of the edge off.

Speaking of tires. First puncture on my first full ride with the bike 🙄. Couldn't find the damn puncture in the tube on the side of the road so I pushed it 1 mile back to my house and took the rear wheel off and removed the tube to find the sucker. Patched it up, good as new.

The batteries are monsters!(52v17.5ah main and 52v14.5ah secondary) Went riding with my brother in law on his Super73 RX. After some spirited trails at 30mph on throttle and then some pedalling while cruising on paved paths between 15-20mph for about 10-15 miles the battery rested for 5 minutes and said 97% and range was 90miles in PAS1. I love this battery setup! My brother in law? 80% on his Super73 and 30 miles of range.

The throttle is a little jumpy in stock configuration. It feels like it's either on or off. I'd prefer and more gradual controlled activation so some programming will be in order. The PAS activation is pretty good. It felt like 1/4 turn of the crank was all it needed. In most instances the motor cutoff time after stopping pedalling was unnoticeable. There was only one time where I was maneuvering through right spot when the motor cutoff was noticeable and stayed on longer than I wanted for the one given situation. Easily programmable so no problems really.

The display looks great and is easy to see in direct sunlight. The power meter on the right hand side of the DPC18 display never reaches 1500watts. I thought that was weird and I know it's nothing to put much stock in to but it always falls short no matter what. Looks like it stops around 1200 or 1300. Only other thing I wish was different about the display was the information that can be scrolled through at the bottom. I prefer to have range shown but everytime the bike turns on, it defaults to trip. Again very little nitpicking but it would be cool if that could be changed. Oh and the time display is only available in 24hr mode. No AM or PM. My math is improving though.

Conclusion: At $3,400, this bike was over my original budget by $1,400. The dual batteries was totally worth it and will be further tested when I get a more comfortable seat and hit the longer trails. Don't love the brakes and derailleur (I may still come around to liking the Shimano Deore once I can get it truly dialed in). Fat tires make everything more fun when you have the motor to back it up. Overall I am happy with the bike and give it a solid 8/10.

I am still considering making some video of the bike in action so be sure to check back in the future.
 
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Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
That's right Expat. The most reliable place to disconnect the battery power is by removing it, which is why Reention and others ditched switches and stuck to battery removal as the means of cutoff (the battery "plug" terminals are designed for thousands of contact cycles, and can also be easily replaced).
Because of the amount of current the switches introduce an extra potential point of failure. With 250 (5 amps or so) watt bikes no big deal, 1500W is another story.
This isn't true. You don't have a heavy duty switch as the switching is done by the BMS and the external switch is only carrying the load an On/Off signal. The BMS already has the ability to shut down the battery incase of Overcharge, Over Discharge, and some even some have high temperature cutoff. So a quality BMS will be designed for 1000's of On/OFF cycles. Additional when using the switch the bike is typically stopped and not under any load so the stress on the BMS switching contacts is minimal.
Removing the switch is a cost cutting measure and though not necessary, it is a lot more convenient than removing the battery.
 

TForan

Well-Known Member
That has the BBSHD motor just as powerful as the ultra, older design, but it also makes less noise.
Looks like you had to pay over 1K more to get it over your Sondors you just cancelled.
But at least your wait is over just in time for spring.
My Ultra is silent.
 

harryS

Well-Known Member
That's true what Gionni sez. A high current switch isn't used. just a microswitch to turn on the relevant BMS circuits. They save a buck or two on the switch and LED, 25 cents on the BMS, and five bucks on labor. Probably save more in returns. The extra stuff does have a small failure rate and probably wasn't waterproof.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
My Ultra is silent.
This comment is (deliberately?) misleading.

Mr. Foran has left out a little detail that makes his motor different from those currently produced. The very early Ultra's (like the one Mr. Foran owns) came from the factory with a composite gear that ran silent. Because some mental giant came up with the fact that even though there were NO FAILURES of that plastic gear to date, if you applied enough power, that gear may become an issue. He was so convincing that Bafang retooled and started making motors with a metal gear. Those gears make noise. It's nothing really objectionable, I call it a low growl, but there is no getting around it. It DOES make noise, and the plastic gear to shut it up is no longer available.
 

Lightning 123

Active Member
This comment is (deliberately?) misleading.

Mr. Foran has left out a little detail that makes his motor different from those currently produced. The very early Ultra's (like the one Mr. Foran owns) came from the factory with a composite gear that ran silent. Because some mental giant came up with the fact that even though there were NO FAILURES of that plastic gear to date, if you applied enough power, that gear may become an issue. He was so convincing that Bafang retooled and started making motors with a metal gear. Those gears make noise. It's nothing really objectionable, I call it a low growl, but there is no getting around it. It DOES make noise, and the plastic gear to shut it up is no longer available.
I have to wonder if it's possible for someone be able to make the gears out of a different material that would be quieter.
 

Ebiker33

Well-Known Member
I have to wonder if it's possible for someone be able to make the gears out of a different material that would be quieter.
Yes it's already been done with a PEEK plastic gear.
PEEK (polyetheretherketone) is a high-performance engineering plastic with excellent mechanical strength and dimensional stability.
Bearing Grade PEEK– has enhanced bearing and wear properties. TECAPEEK® PVX is an ultra high performance bearing material with wear enhancing additives.
Luna has already vetted them with excellent success in the Bafang M600 and the BBSHD, what impressed me the most is that going from nylon to PEEK with extra grease also reduces the noise, a comment from a happy customer

LUNA PEEK GEAR

Just purchased the silent gear for a bbshd motor, My bike is 2 yrs old and mainly use it for hunting and have a deer cart and haul deer with the bike. I tore the motor apart think maybe some wear of the old plastic gear but there was none, I replaced the gear with the new peek plastic gear since I believed it would still be an upgrade to the bike. While everything was apart I cleaned up everything and filled every movable gear with mobil 28 grease and put things back together. I took the bike for a test ride this morning up some hills and was super impressed on how much more quiet the motor was. Once again LUNA you hit a home run with this gear. Next I would like for you guys to produce a peek plastic gear for the ultra 620 motor to quiet that beast down.

I think an Ultra with a Innotrace controller with a PEEK gear would be the ultimate Ebike motor.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Unless something has changed recently, the ONLY gear available for an ULTRA is steel. There are NO composite gears available for the Ultra, and the Ultra gear is NOT the same as the gear used in the BBSxx series.

I would be pretty interested in silencing my Ultra. If there is a composite gear that comes up, count me in.....