Larry Pizzi of EBCC discusses Electric Bike Laws and Classes at Interbike

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
1) Class 2 doesn't allow for both because it is just making a distinction between the two types of bike.
2) I don't think PAS 28 mph is considered safe, it is just considered a bicycle that should be on bike paths adjacent to roads and not causing a hazard to others using dedicated bike paths for other reasons at much slower speeds. Children, Joggers, Walkers, Regular Bikers
3) It seems to me like perhaps there should be a class 4 to allow for higher power throttle bikes. However, if these bikes don't require pedaling, then they are really no longer bikes and should fall under a moped category.

1. Well, that's kind of ridiculous isn't it? How many reviews has Court R done, espousing the benefits of have BOTH a PAS and throttle option? The flexibility, the ability to accelerate better from a stop, pas saves energy...several other pluses to both.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
Hi George,

After two years of commuting 28 miles round trip I'm pretty confident in saying I would approve the idea that a pedaled ebike should be able to travel at 28 mph. I don't go above 24-26 except for downgrades; usually around 30 mph. I believe a useful commuter bike should be allowed to travel at speeds above 20 mph. In the city....probably not, in the rural areas, definitely. Let the rider be ware, it's their responsibility to insure they are riding in a safe manner. I'm in Vienna and I bought my daughter an ebike. We've been riding the island in the Danube and the non ebikers are flying by us at much faster speeds then the ebike will travel. If the US had the same speed restrictions, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be interested in using an ebike to commute 28 miles. I think 30+ is a stretch, but to bring ebikes into longer distance commutes 20+ is a big plus....

Court J.
Well said and matches my experience after 8 years of commuting up o 25 miles one way. I find I like to ride at 600-900W on flats and up to 1200W for hills. That allows me to cruise 20+ to 30mph and then some on open downhills.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
I think an 'American' standard would be around 1000 watts, 32 mph, with no differentiating throttle and PA if the bike really could be pedaled. Let's say that means a speed of 12 mph just with pedals. I don't like the phony pedals, but I don't like the war on throttles.
Yes, an AMERICAN Standard!

I would support and could justify 1.5hp ~ 1100 W, up to 35mph. Real world data, that matches the Optibike 1100R, which I did ride for 3 months. The 1100W is at the edge, but it is geared to still allow leg assist. Note that ICE Mopeds (49cc) and scooters are typically rated at 2.5hp and 35mph.

So why not keep it open up to that point, and fold in a class4 for legalities?
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
I think we early adopters are bound to face some changes as the market and regulations catch up.
Unfortunately, but why give up so easily? Look how Larry and co took the lead , made a proposal, and it sailed through!!! They just forgot about 35% of the users.

edit: 35% is a WAG. Do you have better numbers including DIY folks?
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
Hi George,

After two years of commuting 28 miles round trip I'm pretty confident in saying I would approve the idea that a pedaled ebike should be able to travel at 28 mph. I don't go above 24-26 except for downgrades; usually around 30 mph. I believe a useful commuter bike should be allowed to travel at speeds above 20 mph. In the city....probably not, in the rural areas, definitely. Let the rider be ware, it's their responsibility to insure they are riding in a safe manner. I'm in Vienna and I bought my daughter an ebike. We've been riding the island in the Danube and the non ebikers are flying by us at much faster speeds then the ebike will travel. If the US had the same speed restrictions, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be interested in using an ebike to commute 28 miles. I think 30+ is a stretch, but to bring ebikes into longer distance commutes 20+ is a big plus....

Court J.

Hi Court,

Going by what (mostly young) riders are saying on this forum, the power level is going up pretty fast. Bafang is now at 1,000 watts on the HD. My little calculator says that will go around 32 on the flat. I'd like to see new builders think about the design of the bike, especially wheels, tires and brakes, but that may happen. Live and learn.

Karl had an interesting view of things from Denmark:

http://electric-fatbike.com/2015/09/21/ive-died-and-gone-to-cycling-heaven-welcome-to-denmark/

He talks about how ebikes are for the over 70 crowd in that part of Europe. But you can see the problems with their very low power limits. I'm not sure how the Speed Pedelec will change this.

The commuter bike is probably more of a US thing. I'm impressed by the distances people commute, and it proves ebikes have a place in a transportation system.

They should open things up, as much as possible. Even if they call these bikes "Experimental" or "Developmental", just give people a chance to build bikes and try them in the real world, say for ten years. Then narrow down the laws. Any way you slice it, these are hyper efficient vehicles. The cost of batteries is going to drop very quickly, for a while (Tesla says 50% by 2020). That pushes power and speed, by itself. But we are seeing a lot of marginal designs. If the US wants to have any ebike industry, it's going to be bikes developed along these lines.

Hope the trip goes well, for you and your daughter. Early Fall along the Danube can't be too hard.:)
 

one4torque

Active Member
On my early morning ebike ride I got to thinking about another avenue for Ebike Law...... for handicapped people..... under the accessibilty act...... it seems there could be accomodations for people with health issues to be allowed permits (if it comes to that) for ebikes........ and access to side-walks etc...... Just a thought if this thing get's legislated to death :)
 

one4torque

Active Member
As a benifactor of rehab from my sondors, I can totally see the benefit of the application....... there is overwhelming support for handicap accessibility.... I'm sure there is a way to emphasize the ebike role in this movement. Part of this is Fed law...
 

KBennettAICP

New Member
As a municipal bicycle transportation manager, this issue needs to be vetted through our side of the aisle as well. I am one of many professionals around the country (and the world) who are responsible for planning, designing, operating and/or maintaining facilities for bicycling. I can tell you that the typical design speed for an off-street multi-use trail (i.e., a paved 10' or wider trail that accommodates bicycling as well as walking, running, dog walking, stroller pushing, inline skating, skate boarding, Razor-type scooters, persons with disabilities, etc. is NOT designed to accommodate speeds more than 20 mph typically. Moreover, one of the more common complaints we receive is about speed differential - pedestrians concerned about safety from bicyclists "whizzing" past them on trails (and the counter complaints from people on bikes about pedestrians who don't walk on the right side of the trail or spread their group across the whole trail, dog leashes stretched across trails, uncontained children, etc.). Adding more speed to these environments, especially in busy urban areas, will add to these complaints and possibly more actual safety issues. I am supportive of electric assist bicycles (I am married to someone who has worked in the bike industry for 20 years so I am not a novice when it comes to industry changes), but rolling out new products and especially new laws and legislation should be done with those of us who are involved in design and operations of bike lanes, cycle tracks, trails, etc. Visit www.apbp.org to connect with our industry group.
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
rolling out new products and especially new laws and legislation should be done with those of us who are involved in design and operations of bike lanes, cycle tracks, trails, etc.

I don't know if you saw this. Lots to dig through, but basically the suggestion is that ebike growth could be massive. Funding from BPSA. Too many groups, many vested interests...
 

Attachments

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opimax

Well-Known Member
KB, how does it matter how a bike gets to speed , I have a type 3 bike (28mph no throttle) and get passed by bikers w/o motors. I dont understand why it matters what the bike CAN do but what the rider DOES? how come a 700 hp Dodge Hellcat can drive down my 25mph street ? on the the nearest shared use path to me it is 44 miles long and some of it out in the country where no user walks and you can ride for an hour and not see anyone...
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
As a municipal bicycle transportation manager, this issue needs to be vetted through our side of the aisle as well. I am one of many professionals around the country (and the world) who are responsible for planning, designing, operating and/or maintaining facilities for bicycling. I can tell you that the typical design speed for an off-street multi-use trail (i.e., a paved 10' or wider trail that accommodates bicycling as well as walking, running, dog walking, stroller pushing, inline skating, skate boarding, Razor-type scooters, persons with disabilities, etc. is NOT designed to accommodate speeds more than 20 mph typically. Moreover, one of the more common complaints we receive is about speed differential - pedestrians concerned about safety from bicyclists "whizzing" past them on trails (and the counter complaints from people on bikes about pedestrians who don't walk on the right side of the trail or spread their group across the whole trail, dog leashes stretched across trails, uncontained children, etc.). Adding more speed to these environments, especially in busy urban areas, will add to these complaints and possibly more actual safety issues. I am supportive of electric assist bicycles (I am married to someone who has worked in the bike industry for 20 years so I am not a novice when it comes to industry changes), but rolling out new products and especially new laws and legislation should be done with those of us who are involved in design and operations of bike lanes, cycle tracks, trails, etc. Visit www.apbp.org to connect with our industry group.

KB,

Yes, most urban pathways will be used by the masses and present multiple safety concerns. Ebikers AND regular bikers need restraint, not prohibition. As a nation, we can make this work.

What is more fair and safe: Expect an ebike rider to ride 20mph or less, safely on a path, at the risk of pedestrians. OR, put these low speed ebikers on the road and expect all vehicle drivers to never hit them, while they drink coffee and talk on cell phones?? The more we use our pathways, fewer cars on the road.

Sometime ebikers want to go faster, and don't need/want a pathway, and can be just fine on many road sections. However, sometimes, these same fast bikes, need to be off the road and onto a pathway in order to ride safe and still be biking.

Thanks for your input and insight into the municipal side.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
1. Well, that's kind of ridiculous isn't it? How many reviews has Court R done, espousing the benefits of have BOTH a PAS and throttle option? The flexibility, the ability to accelerate better from a stop, pas saves energy...several other pluses to both.
Class 2 (throttle only bike) don't require pedaling ei
1) Class 2 doesn't allow for both because it is just making a distinction between the two types of bike.
2) I don't think PAS 28 mph is considered safe, it is just considered a bicycle that should be on bike paths adjacent to roads and not causing a hazard to others using dedicated bike paths for other reasons at much slower speeds. Children, Joggers, Walkers, Regular Bikers
3) It seems to me like perhaps there should be a class 4 to allow for higher power throttle bikes. However, if these bikes don't require pedaling, then they are really no longer bikes and should fall under a moped category.

1. Class 2 should be Throttle + PAS optional
2. "I don't think PAS 28 mph is considered safe", pish posh. I assume you think a car can't go 80 mph safely either? It has been said many times, ALL riders need to be cautious on pathways and observe speed limits. Road bike, class 1, 2, 3 or 4 doesn't matter. They are BIKES, shoul dhave rights, must be responsible or get fined/sued.
3. I prefer throttles get combines with 28mph PAS. We really only need 2 classes: sub 20 PAS+THR and sub 28 PAS+THR, but oh well, Larry want to sell more bikes. However, regulation is catching up to us, as you have said, and we will be forced to accept SOMETHING. I can accept a class 4.