Larry Pizzi on Ebike Regs

J.R.

Well-Known Member
Wow that's a big hit for retailers! I'm glad I live in PA, very low in population and we settled the ebike issue last year, well mostly. Our biggest problem that will scare dealers is the 25mph max speed.

Thanks for posting George!
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
Larry's efforts have been bad mouthed by some as meddling where there isn't a problem. Obviously there is a problem - a big problem -and Larry is doing heroic work so we can ride our e-bikes without being in violation of laws.

Obviously the industry has the financial incentive to fight this battle, but it wouldn't hurt if we, the riders, sent in a few bucks also.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
This is the stuff from the California hearings, but he gives some detail.

Clearly, there is a problem in New York.



http://element.ly/2015/01/ebikes/
Larry is doing some good advocacy for ebikes, especially the ones he sells! (couldn't resist) I like that the industry is attempting to set up some normalized rules so the market can be stable, and I like that power limits are not the focus, though I expect they will be added.

Class 1 – Pedal assist electric bicycle with a top assisted speed of less than 20 MPH (32 KPH). Motor power is cut as bike reaches 20 MPH.
Class 2 – Throttle assist electric bicycle with a top assisted speed of less than 20 MPH (32 KPH). Motor power is cut as bike reaches 20 MPH.
Class 3 – Pedal assist electric bicycle with a top assisted speed of less than 28 MPH (45 KPH). Motor power continues to provide assist when the bike reaches speeds above 20 MPH, allowing human power to be added to make the bike go up to 28 MPH before motor assisted is cut.

Question: Why didn't this committee make class 3 both Pedal and throttle assisted? Why not ask for more up front here and not alienate other growth markets/vendors?
The plan entails writing these three classifications into model state legislation that will guide use regulations, requiring the industry to apply an indelible label with the proper class designation. Proposed by classification use would be restricted as follows: (did he mean Permitted??)
Class 1 – Anywhere a normal bicycle may be ridden. Intent is to be considered a normal bicycle in the same manner a qualified EPAC is considered a bicycle in the EU.
Class 2 – Any paved bicycle infrastructure, including multi-use bicycle paths where normal bicycle may be ridden.
Class 3 – Any street or roadway where a normal bicycle may be ridden including bike lanes that are adjacent to a roadway.

This application guide is a nice + and - take on the same requirements. Again, I fear this is over complicating the issue. Can't we just have two classes for
paved roads, and what ever they decide for mountain trails?


Class 1 – Pedal or throttle assist electric bicycle with a top assisted speed of less than 20 MPH (32 KPH). Motor power is cut as bike reaches 20 MPH.
Class 2 – Pedal or throttle assist electric bicycle with a top assisted speed of less than 28 MPH (45 KPH). Motor power continues to provide assist when the bike reaches speeds above 20 MPH, allowing human power to be added to make the bike go up to 28 MPH before motor assisted is cut.
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
Can't we just have two classes for
paved roads, and what ever they decide for mountain trails?
Enthusiasts always want more liberal rules for themselves lol. The four classifications are looking at it from the perception of the general public ... ie ...almost everybody!

Guidelines differentiate pedal and throttle, as does the voting public.
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
It is no surprise that the industry is driving this bus. Focusing on the states of CA. and NY which just happen to have the largest population densities no less.

I know that throttles are not popular on here but after riding assist bikes for the last 20 years I prefer them personally and don't see not using them well in to the future. PAS can be a PITA if it is not done correctly as in being torque sensitive. Higher end systems have achieved this but the lower end ones using sensors have not.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
Enthusiasts always want more liberal rules for themselves lol. The four classifications are looking at it from the perception of the general public ... ie ...almost everybody!

Guidelines differentiate pedal and throttle, as does the voting public.
Mr Nast,

People do differentiate between pedaling or not (throttle), fair enough. Still, people differentiate MORE, imo, between having a motor or not...it has more weight in the larger discussion...to the general public as you reference.

When the final "Safety" card is played by the do-gooder regulators, the differentiator will be speed demarcations. I don't think they care about how you get there. Cyclist might, but police don't.

BTW, the people on the committee making the rules, are doing so with their own interest in mind, because they have the deep pockets. To be on this committee requires a sizeable financial investment in order to get to write the rules. It is easy for you to be smug and justify supporting your friends at Bosch/Currie when power and money is on your side, dismissing the blatant omission of 20+mph throttle control as some hobby and incorrectly as a minority. PAS, low power bikes are NEW to the American market, apart from Bionx and older Giant designs. The energized, DIY market far exceeds the OEMs.

So this is a great business plan. Essentially make all DIY kits, OEM power bikes and home builds illegal, and try to force the independent, green, pioneers to buy a newer, "safer", less powerful, legal vehicle. wow.

We all know how you love the Bosch mid drive. Let's not let the love blind you from the fact that people can ride safe and cheap with a throttle, and may you put e-biking at large ahead of your Bosch promotionals spread across this forum.
 
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pxpaulx

Well-Known Member
Damn @stevenast I thought I was hard on you! ^^^^^^^ :)

I don't necessarily mind the legislation myself, however I do agree it 100% serves those with the deepest pockets and stake in the potential market. They want to bring what they already have in other countries here without having to change up their line of bikes to suit a different market (or multiple markets as it is currently with each state adopting their own unique rules). I like pedal assist, but that also might be because my neo xtrem has a torque sensor that makes using it a pleasure. We'll see how that plays out with the other two bikes I have, er, contributed to, hahaha.
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
It was about "Confirmation Bias", posted by @FTC Complaint

The short version, by my understanding, is that people get so emotionally attached to their side of an argument that no amount of logic can change it.

I don't want to be that person!
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
This was the first thing I saw:

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/nort...-legislation-california-new-york#.VVKQW_lVhBc

There are some good comments on this page, at the bottom.

I think there are two reasonable questions, probably more:

1) why not just stick with the CPSC definitions and speeds?

2) why not just use a speed limit for any facility where an ebike may be a problem?

Park City went with a 14 mph ebike speed limit on multi-use paths. I could live with that, and I can see the logic. Push the ebikes down to the speed of fit riders, level things out.

I don't know who was 'allowed' to form this new set of rules. I know there is a real problem in New York. I'm not sure there was a real problem in California, but things were probably drifting.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
It's interesting to see how the game is played.

Pedego was the sole opposition to this new set of rules and it was so until this year. Why? because California is Pedego's market, especially marketing interceptor, commuter et al models and rentals to baby boomers.
Throttle is an important component in their bikes. They are still not happy with the decision.

Currie on the other hand, has sold throttle only and throttle +PAS bikes until now but now they are being amalgamated into Accell and they not pushing their sales too hard like before. Accell is an EU brand and they predominantly want to keep the same products that they sell in EU. New legislation will help brands like Raliegh, Haibike, Felt, Focus etc. They are going to lobby hard. It's interesting to see their version of the story ;)

As Dan mentioned, I hope the focus is about ebikes as alternative transport. At one time, I was nauseated by the marketing ploy used by few brands to get this woman to ride their bike. She weighed something like 460 lbs and has now lost over 270 lbs, thanks to biking. I hope these companies will bring ebikes to the masses and not just create another firewall.

 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
Pedego said the new classifications would be confusing to consumers and difficult to explain. Following the "George Carlin rule", that's probably true.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
Ok, side question:

What should be the speed limit for a paved bike path ( no walkers) with no sharp turns and open visibility?
 

stevenast

Well-Known Member
Lol, I almost posted they should go with the old Montana Highway "reasonable and prudent".

Keeping in mind that speed limits are the maximum, and that reasonable people must slow down as circumstances require, I would suggest 35 miles per hour ... if no pedestrians are allowed, and some sort of fence keeps them out.