Luna Cycle X1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

TomD

Well-Known Member
I purchased a Luna X1 last year when it was released but eventually returned it as I was put off by the M600 motor noise. The medium size I had ordered was also a bit small for me at 6' 0". A few months ago Luna came out with a quieter reduction gear so I decided to give the X1 another try, this time ordering a large. I did not upgrade to the Ludi controller as the stock M600 power should be more than adequate and range is more important to me. The "Dark Diva" arrived last night along with some complementary extras: Luna tool kit, assortment of face masks, keyring flashlight, Welch's fruit snacks, and a very nice steel Luna water bottle. The "Red Queen" in the background salivated over the water bottle in her future and awaited the unboxing:

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I was making great progress putting the bike together, only to be stymied by a warped front rotor. After a few hours of pushing and pulling I finally got it straight enough to spin without rubbing the brake pads. Hopefully it holds. Put the rest of the bike together this morning but will have to wait until tomorrow for a ride when the weather clears.

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I noticed the battery was jutting out slightly from the frame and a tad loose, so I added some some electrical tape to the top of the socket hole holding it in, which seems to have snugged things up and made it more flush. I also couldn't power on the bike, fiddled with all the wires to make sure they were tightly inserted, but no dice. I eventually realized there is a hidden push button below the battery cover that disables the power. Once I pushed that in all was good.

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I'll provide more thoughts and impressions along the way including comparison to my cheap hard tail BH Easy Motion Rebel Lite $777 eMTB.
 
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Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
Very nice build ! Congratulations !

It looks a lot nicer and ca see the details better from your pictures then from the pics posted by owners on the Luna website.

What weight do you think it has and what battery WH do you have on her ?
Enjoy many , many worry free miles with it and scenic rides .
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
Thanks, yes, in my opinion the matte carbon finish is absolutely stunning and one of the reasons I re-ordered the same color. It looks better in person than it does in pictures. I'm not a fan of the glossy X1 colors with white LUNA decals. The matte black finish is stealthier as well.

As far as weight I haven't put it on the scale but my medium was 56 lbs. You can get it down around 50 lbs with carbon rims and tubeless. I don't plan to make any changes other than throw on a protaper carbon handlebar with 20 degree rise and 20 degree sweep.

The stock battery is 650 amp hours and one of the reasons I didn't go with the ludi option. I just took it for a quick ride around the block and I'd say it's about half the noise of the original gear at lower cadence, but at higher cadence it still gets pretty loud, although not as obnoxious as the original steel gear was. I think the X1 is going to work for me this time around.
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
I just put it on the scale and to my surprise my large X1 weighs in at just under 55 pounds, so slightly less than my medium X1, not sure why, maybe 1 less metal gear in the motor, ha!
 

BillyKidd

Member
Welcome back to the dark side Tom. I bought mine based partly on your experience with your first X1. Had it for about 3 weeks now and couldn't be happier with the bike. Changed the chain ring out on day 2 to a 42 tooth. I was buying 3 bikes at once for wife and son and the bikes they settled on both have rear hub motors. I knew if I was to keep up with them on casual riding situations I would need the mechanical advantage of a bigger chain ring. I go head to head with my son on flats sometimes and can hold my own but I have to peddle faster than he seems to. Am really interested to hear your thoughts as your journey unfolds. I do really like your CC as well. I couldn't get my head around the wait time and shipping cost but I am sure I would really enjoy that bike as well. BTW, the triangle at the top of the frame is where I mount mine for maintenance. Best of luck with the X1!
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
Glad to hear you are liking your X1. I would be very careful clamping a carbon frame anywhere but the seat post. Park Tools seems to think there is minimal risk clamping the dropper.

 

BillyKidd

Member
Hey Tom. I saw that video a few weeks ago. I did get a response from Luna on this question and it was their recommendation to clamp to the frame. I am very cautious however.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Very nice indeed!

Interesting that they use schrader valve and inverted the rear shock mounting.
Does it accept common reention rhino battery pack?

Now you have the Frey bike with Ultra and Luna X1, perhaps you could provide some feedback to future users/customers.
  1. Power delivery in comparison to each other and in comparison to the Yamaha motor.

  2. Torque sensor sensitivity between M600 and M620

  3. What is the typical range one can expect from these bikes (they may have different size battery packs)

  4. Suspension and braking performance
These kind of details may help a lot of people to make a decision.
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
Just got back from my first ride today. Unfortunately the front tire has a slow leak so had to huff it home. It was close to flat when I discovered it but fortunately it held air after pumping it up the nearest gas station.

Initial impressions of the M600. The torque sensing is as unrefined as I remember (actually worse). I'm not sure if I have a faulty torque sensor, if Luna did some custom tuning to the M600, or if this is just how the stock M600 is. Assist 1 is worthless, barely any assist, can't tell the motor is doing much. Assist 2 isn't smooth at all, it cuts out mid cadence unless you put constant pressure on the pedals. I found it unusable on the ride up the steep sustained hill on my way home as it kept lurching and cutting out as I alternated pressure on the left and right pedals. Assist 3 starts to smooth out but almost too much power for the first usable PAS. It's similar to standard or turbo assist on my 250W nominal mid drive. I'd prefer more exercise but not sure Assist 1 and 2 are going to cut it. Assist 4 and 5 are plenty powerful. I'd say 5 is about half the power of my Ultra.

Having ridden a refined Euro spec I'm not sure I can recommend the M600, but I need to ride more. I warmed up to the Ultra as I rode it. I am surprised Pushkar is offering the M600. I know a lot of people seem happy the M600, not sure why, maybe they've never ridden a refined mid-drive.
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
Just got back from my first ride today. Unfortunately the front tire has a slow leak so had to huff it home. It was close to flat when I discovered it but fortunately it held air after pumping it up the nearest gas station.

Initial impressions of the M600. The torque sensing is as unrefined as I remember (actually worse). I'm not sure if I have a faulty torque sensor, if Luna did some custom tuning to the M600, or if this is just how the stock M600 is. Assist 1 is worthless, barely any assist, can't tell the motor is doing much. Assist 2 isn't smooth at all, it cuts out mid cadence unless you put constant pressure on the pedals. I found it unusable on the ride up the steep sustained hill on my way home as it kept lurching and cutting out as I alternated pressure on the left and right pedals. Assist 3 starts to smooth out but almost too much power for the first usable PAS. It's similar to standard or turbo assist on my 250W nominal mid drive. I'd prefer more exercise but not sure Assist 1 and 2 are going to cut it. Assist 4 and 5 are plenty powerful. I'd say 5 is about half the power of my Ultra.

Having ridden a refined Euro spec I'm not sure I can recommend the M600, but I need to ride more. I warmed up to the Ultra as I rode it. I am surprised Pushkar is offering the M600. I know a lot of people seem happy the M600, not sure why, maybe they've never ridden a refined mid-drive.
@tomdav Thanks for bringing this up. This is an interesting observation. I am not sure if the Luna upping the wattage changes the stock programming / torque curves.

Can you comment on your experience with a non-Luna M600 (if you have experienced that in the past)? Luna m600 default is 750W, but the stock m600 is only 500W.

Our experience with m600 at 500W nominal (the default) is relatively smooth- and out of the box it is actually much smoother than the stock Bafang Ultra controller. That experience has been echoed by my first 5-6 customers who have received pre-order versions, and also my experience with the City Commuter, and bikes from other m600 vendors.

Overall I am quite comfortable with the m600 at 500W stock for city commuting. I have not experimented with it off road / trail style.

Would be curious to get your thoughts on this.
 
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scout592

Active Member
tomdav, you mentioned in your initial post. ". I did not upgrade to the Ludi controller as the stock M600 power should be more than adequate and range is more important to me." I wonder if the other controller would have made any difference in your experience? Does controller have anything to do with the finese of the motor that doesn't seem too good? I dont know about technical details so just asking. Thanks
 

byunbee

Well-Known Member
I wonder if Luna is using the same power delivery settings on the 750W version as the 2000W version. Anyone with Luna X1 Ludicrous that can offer feedback on their experience?
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
I have the non-Ludi X1. I am pretty sure it's the stock M600 motor (500W nominal) marketed as a 750W nominal motor. On their product page Luna indicates they custom tuned the torque sensing on the X1, but I'm assuming this was for the ludi version. I am following up with Luna to get the skinny. It's all very confusing because programming the M600 requires a dealer tool and custom firmware, and I don't think Luna has the expertise to create the firmware. Maybe Pushkar can chime in on what options he is provided with for tuning the M600. It is encouraging to hear he is not experiencing these issues.

An interesting comment here about different torque sensing curve at lower PAS settings. The commenter has the Ludi version:


Also interesting that the OP of that thread has the non-Ludi version and uses the lower PAS exclusively (1-3 in 9 PAS setting which corresponds to 1-2 for my 5 PAS setting). This would be unusable for me so makes me think I have a faulty toque sensor or got the Ludi torque sensing assuming there is a difference.
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
I have the non-Ludi X1. I am pretty sure it's the stock M600 motor (500W nominal) marketed as a 750W nominal motor. On their product page Luna indicates they custom tuned the torque sensing on the X1, but I'm assuming this was for the ludi version. I am following up with Luna to get the skinny. It's all very confusing because programming the M600 requires a dealer tool and custom firmware, and I don't think Luna has the expertise to create the firmware. Maybe Pushkar can chime in on what options he is provided with for tuning the M600. It is encouraging to hear he is not experiencing these issues.

An interesting comment here about different torque sensing curve at lower PAS settings. The commenter has the Ludi version:


Also interesting that the OP of that thread has the non-Ludi version and uses the lower PAS exclusively (1-3 in 10 PAS setting which corresponds to 1-2 for my 5 PAS setting). This would be unusable for me so makes me think I have a faulty toque sensor or got the Ludi torque sensing assuming there is a difference.
Yeah.. would definitely be good to know. IMO the "configurability" for m600 is very minimal, even with the BESST toolkit. This is the one we use https://www.bafang-e.com/en/oem-area/components/component/motor/mm-g521500c/ and I am pretty sure it is rated at 500W.

Question - on your bike - do you experience a noticeable drop in PAS assist, and then a surge when switching between PAS1 to PAS2 (or pas N to N+1) ?
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
Thanks pushkar, not sure about your question. Unfortunately I can't test as I pulled my front tube out to patch it, but yesterday I didn't really notice any surge when switching PAS, just that it didn't feel smooth until I bumped it to 3 of 5.
 

pushkar

Well-Known Member
Thanks pushkar, not sure about your question. Unfortunately I can't test as I pulled my front tube out to patch it, but yesterday I didn't really notice any surge when switching PAS, just that it didn't feel smooth until I bumped it to 3 of 5.
No worries.. I thought I'd ask. It is good to know that assist 3,4,5 are smooth (er). Phew.
I suspect something got fried on the controller downstream. I agree - please try to reach Luna - I am sure they will swap out the motor for you.
 

BillyKidd

Member
Hey Tom. I was wondering if you got a chance to do any down hill single track before the flat. Also, make you sure you tighten the $^%$^*^ out of the compression bolts positioned in the crank arm around the crank. My right crank arm came loose during a ride tonight.
 
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TomD

Well-Known Member
No, I didn't get a chance, really just wanted a FS bike for off road, won't be using it for any serious single track.

Heard back from Luna. They said they had Bafang come out and tune the torque sensing to their satisfaction, mostly for the Ludi controller. Apparently non-Ludi is closer to stock but they wouldn't provide more details than that. When I asked why the torque sensing was so unrefined in PAS 1-2 they claimed " torque sensing gets rougher feeling the more powerful the bike" which IMO makes no sense. At lower PAS it's not putting out more power than euro spec mid drives which are plenty smooth, so why not the M600? I hold out hope that Innotrace will come out with an aftermarket controller with a level of refinement that will do the M600 justice.