Luna Z1 - First impressions

[Jeffr]

PAS probably is what exhausting your battery. Can you turn off PAS and just have it run on tourqe sensor?

Yes, that's what the JonA Frey tune does. Helps a lot. Brought my range up from 14 miles to almost 19 miles.

 

[JRA]

Thanks for chiming in @Jeffr. I guess I am not alone. However I am getting somewhat better range @ 17 miles/2400' with the stock tune using 1-3 of 5 and didn't come up against the cut out.

However since then I have and the cutout sounds the same. I am glad that the JonA tune drops the LVC on the display because I can monitor via my display that I don't go below 41v but as Scrambler has said it may be set high also at the BMS which would override the display voltage? And thanks to @scrambler for being the voice of reason also! It is always good to have someone that really understands the nomenclature on board.

I just picked up on the AliExpress vendor from another fourm that has the right case, probably the one you are using? However I don't think that they will be any more up to the job than the stock ones given they are 30A and the cells vary due to mah so that a 15ah battery as listed is only using a 3000mah cell as opposed to what is "supposed" to be in the stock 17.5ah battery are 3500mah, which of course is what bumps up the total Ah's. So I don't expect that they will even provide the same amount of wh's as the larger cells and dependent on how they have the BMS set may be the same, better or worse. Maybe get in touch with them to see what type of BMS setting they use?

I still think that the best way forward is using 21700 cells. It won't be leaps and bounds better but worth a try. I took my battery out yesterday and took some measurements to see what the possibility of getting a 21700 cell battery in there is. However it will be tricky to do and keep the same connections and I don't want to mess with those if at all possible. Mainly so that I can always use the stock battery but make it my secondary one.

There is no doubt that the M620 is a watt hog though. The tune makes a difference but it is a big motor with lots of copper and magnets, overall weight to deal with. Problem is is it is just too much fun to ride. Luckily for me most of my rides are around 20 miles here or less but can be more also. Although I live at 170' above sea level I don't have any problems getting 2k+ ele gain either due to our topography. Last night I took a late afternoon spin up the road to check on the road work going on and knowing I wasn't going to be out long I used 5 for the first time and ripping up hill at over 20 is fun! Easily twice as fast with the same input from me as anything I have ridden in the past.

 

[Nebakanezzar]

I was just thinking i have not seen any complaints with the Watwagons Hydra battery life (which uses the same Dengfu E22 frame as the Z1) so I just took a look at the specs. looks like they spec a 52v battery, same as the Luna Apollo had...could the 52V vs 48V be the difference in battery life?

Hydra Spec:
Motor: Bafang Ultra with X1 controller, Class 3
Battery: 52V, 800Wh, 18650 cells, Smart BMS

 

[scrambler]

It would be interesting to find out how much of a difference an Innotrace / Archon X1 controller would make.
It is supposed to be a lot more efficient than stock, but not sure compared to Luna's

 

[TomD]

The WW Hydra Black is 48V. Probably will be the same battery as the Z1 since both builds are sourced from Dengfu. Not sure any Hydra Black been delivered, will be interesting to see if similar battery issues manifest. I would think anyone buying the Hydra would upgrade to the Archon controller, it's just a no brainer if you're already spending $5K+. IME range dramatically improved after upgrading the controller on my Frey CC. Innotrace claims 30% higher efficiency mostly because of the use of FOC vs. BLCD. They didn't seem to think tuning made as much difference, although Frey Smooth Tune proponents might disagree.

 

[Nebakanezzar]

Hmmm, odd the Black has 48V. its says the Black comes with stock M620, upgradeable to X1, so must have something to do with the controller.

i believe the Apollo also had a juiced up controller.

 

[JRA]

Obviously lots of moving parts! Here are some pix of a 13S4P 20ah 48v Samsung 50G 21700 cell with 30A smart BMS fit into an E10 frame which as far as I can tell is the same battery cavity the Z1 uses?

Obviously takes some doing and the owner said he replaced the battery lock with a charge port which was smart. But looks like a win win for him as he got a higher Ah battery using arguably higher grade cells. Will be keeping an eye on how he says it performs....

 

[scrambler]

Interesting. Are you sure this is 13S4P, that would be 52 cells, but it looks like two rows of 19cells (38). Hard to really see them all though

 

[TomD]

Hmmm, odd the Black has 48V. its says the Black comes with stock M620, upgradeable to X1, so must have something to do with the controller.

The Hydra Black is assembled by Dengfu. That's why it's priced lower and can't be customized, other than upgrading the controller and adding a spare battery. The battery specs are: 48V, 800Wh, 18650 cells. The other Hydras are built in house by Watt Wagons and come with 52V battery.

 

[Jeffr]

Interesting. Are you sure this is 13S4P, that would be 52 cells, but it looks like two rows of 19cells (38). Hard to really see them all though

I’m thinking it’s 13s3p. Using 21700 cells with 4900 mah, that would be 48v15ah, about the same as a 13p5s using 3000 maH 18650 cells

 

[rtp]

It would be interesting to find out how much of a difference an Innotrace / Archon X1 controller would make.
It is supposed to be a lot more efficient than stock, but not sure compared to Luna's

square signal(Bafang) vs sine wave/FOC(Archon/Innotrace/LudiV2) should see some efficiency gains, but Luna only has controllers for the BBHSD and M600 at this point.
I thought there was some back and forth on what the actual Hydra battery was recently - was that for the Hydra Black only ?

 

[rtp]

Hmmm, odd the Black has 48V. its says the Black comes with stock M620, upgradeable to X1, so must have something to do with the controller.

i believe the Apollo also had a juiced up controller.

Not a ‘real’ upgraded controller, possibly increased max current, but that wouldn’t improve efficiency…but the big-ass battery helped I’m sure!

 

[TomD]

Apollo users actually reported the most efficiency gains after upgrading to Archon, granted it was sample size of 1. Makes sense that, if anything, the Luna mod to double the current made things less efficient than more.

 

[rtp]

Apollo users actually reported the most efficiency gains after upgrading to Archon, granted it was sample size of 1. Makes sense that, if anything, the Luna mod to double the current made things less efficient than more.

We’re they getting them from Pushkar/WW or from Innotrace directly before that path dried up (for the US)?
I haven’t read about any Inno/Archon Apollos but that would be nice with that battery and controller..

 

[TomD]

Before the chip shortage there was no problem upgrading, as long as you could stomach the price. Option seems to be gone from the WW site (unless you are buying a bike), guessing it's a temporary thing until chip shortage resolves. Here is the user report:

First ride with the Archon X1 upgrade!

Ride #4 today. Decided to ride around Lake Sammamish (lake below in this picture), something I had never had the courage to attempt with the stock controller given monster hill to get home. Starting Voltage: 53.8V (95% battery) Ending Voltage: 48.3V (60% battery) Distance: 35 miles Gain...

electricbikereview.com

 

[JRA]

I’m thinking it’s 13s3p. Using 21700 cells with 4900 mah, that would be 48v15ah, about the same as a 13p5s using 3000 maH 18650 cells

Copied from the source:

13s4p battery, 52 pcs samsung 50g cells smart bms 30A

 

[Jeebuspwnz]

Did anyone ever determine if these are the correct hangars for the Z1? I bent mine this weekend and its only a matter of time till I break one, would like to get a pare to have on hand.

Confirmed these work. Delivered and installed. Identical to stock AFAIK.

8.12US $ 71% OFF|Bicycle Parts Mech Dropout For 4ever Sxc 29 Dengfu E10 Tosa Bike Am1.0 Cycle Gear Rear Derailleur Rd Hanger Gravel Carbon Frame - Bicycle Derailleur Hanger - AliExpress

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www.aliexpress.com

 

[Jaeger]

I have not been able to take my Z1 out yet bc the roads are too salty and snowy in MN. I’ve been staying on my fat tire with the same bafang G510-620 mid drive motor. Listening to all the battery range posts has made me concerned and I started searching for another battery to get before the snow melts. Hard to find anything for the dengfu e22 so I reached out to Luna about acquiring another battery. They responded quickly letting me know they plan to have them available soon but not right now. I also asked about the specs/ size battery available through dengfu maybe. I have pasted a helpful response from Luna below with a link to Alibaba.com.

Luna’s email response:
You could purchase a dengfu e10 battery on aliexpress however.

I would email the seller first to make sure you get a 40A BMS inside.

You need a minimum 40A BMS for the Ultra motor.

413.85US $ 7% OFF|Dengfu E10 Electric Bike Battery Pack 48v 17.5ah 840wh Bafang Motor Frame M500 M600 Ebike Batteries - Electric Bicycle Battery - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

 

[JRA]

@Jaeger If you have a fat bike with an M625 what are you getting for range with it? Granted it is a different beast and cold temps of course both of which should display worse average wh/mi?

 

[Nebakanezzar]

@Jaeger, try emailing Dengfu directly. tony@dengfubikes.com