Mid drive, Gates belt and hub gears.

tompat

Active Member
I don't see the Nuvinci rear hub gaining popularity in the future. I see us eventually moving to something like the Shimano Di2 shifters where there are no longer cables but with blue tooth technology. Just touch the levers and the shifts occur immediately.
There are many other IGH. Shimano Alfine, Nexus. And of course the older Sturmey Archer and Sachs Torpedoes.
Many of these are well suited for everyday commuting with an e-bike. The need for massive amounts of gears just isn't there for most people when they have an electric motor to assist.

For myself, I'm awaiting delivery of a Rohloff Speedhub equipped bike.
 

keithd

Active Member
There are many other IGH. Shimano Alfine, Nexus. And of course the older Sturmey Archer and Sachs Torpedoes.
Many of these are well suited for everyday commuting with an e-bike. The need for massive amounts of gears just isn't there for most people when they have an electric motor to assist.

For myself, I'm awaiting delivery of a Rohloff Speedhub equipped bike.
Which bike are you getting?
 

dharmardr

New Member
I see Pedego has a new bike the Conveyor , Mid drive, belt drive and hub shifted. Haven't seen one yet.
There folding bike is a belt drive.
I'm very new to this, have not yet purchased an ebike. Looking at mid drive bikes with Belt and hub shifted. Any experience with Evelo in Seattle? They have a bike Aurora Limited with these features.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I read this forum string and I realized just how effective marketing koolaid is - it seems everyone believes an effective ebike needs gears. I understand how important gearing is for technical mountain biking but for most commuting needs gears may not even make sense.

I watch some of the review videos and it seems that in a few seconds the rider goes from 1st (or other low gear) to a high or highest gear. As I rider I would mind just being on a fixie knowing that once I'm say above 10mph my cadence is OK for the fixed gear ratio to be allowing me to be effective. For example a 60T front and a 20T rear sprocket will allow me to cruise at 20mph at an 80 cadence on a bike with 650B / 27.5" tires. Obviously that can be optimized for the cruising speed the rider feels is optimized for them.

With adequate motor torque gearing is not really needed....just go with a fixie gear ratio that provides the range of cadence you prefer at the range of speeds you feel most comfortable at and stop drinking the marketing koolaid that you have to have a derailleur or IGT. I think what you'll discover is that you'll work just a bit harder to go from stop to say 12mph but most of us can live with a little bit more bursts of exertion.
 

dharmardr

New Member
I read this forum string and I realized just how effective marketing koolaid is - it seems everyone believes an effective ebike needs gears. I understand how important gearing is for technical mountain biking but for most commuting needs gears may not even make sense.

I watch some of the review videos and it seems that in a few seconds the rider goes from 1st (or other low gear) to a high or highest gear. As I rider I would mind just being on a fixie knowing that once I'm say above 10mph my cadence is OK for the fixed gear ratio to be allowing me to be effective. For example a 60T front and a 20T rear sprocket will allow me to cruise at 20mph at an 80 cadence on a bike with 650B / 27.5" tires. Obviously that can be optimized for the cruising speed the rider feels is optimized for them.

With adequate motor torque gearing is not really needed....just go with a fixie gear ratio that provides the range of cadence you prefer at the range of speeds you feel most comfortable at and stop drinking the marketing koolaid that you have to have a derailleur or IGT. I think what you'll discover is that you'll work just a bit harder to go from stop to say 12mph but most of us can live with a little bit more bursts of exertion.

Thank you Ken, it is easy to get swept away.
 

Mike TowpathTraveler

Well-Known Member
With a 60 tooth front sprocket and 20 tooth rear, expect that commuter bike chewing up a great amount of battery power every single time you come to a stop situation on your commute. Fixed speed bicycles are just a niche thing. The advances in derailleur systems today as well as the internal hub gears are really amazing compared to what we had available 30-40 years ago.

Though I haven't used it much since getting my Haibike, I've a Trek Soho DLX with the Gates Carbon Belt Drive and Shimano Nexus rear IGH, 8 speed. It's a delight to pedal.

Besides, shifting gears up and down to meet the conditions of road and wind before you is part of the fun of riding!
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
With a 60 tooth front sprocket and 20 tooth rear, expect that commuter bike chewing up a great amount of battery power every single time you come to a stop situation on your commute. Fixed speed bicycles are just a niche thing. The advances in derailleur systems today as well as the internal hub gears are really amazing compared to what we had available 30-40 years ago.

Though I haven't used it much since getting my Haibike, I've a Trek Soho DLX with the Gates Carbon Belt Drive and Shimano Nexus rear IGH, 8 speed. It's a delight to pedal.

Besides, shifting gears up and down to meet the conditions of road and wind before you is part of the fun of riding!
On an ebike I would think that most riders have enough energy to not need motor assist to get the bike to say 10mph before they begin to utilize assist. The very low speed range is where human power is most efficient (when a 200lb rider stands on the cranks they are generating over 150N-m of torque which is more than the vast majority of mid drives. Sure it would be tiring to sustain that but for for the 5-10 seconds to get going from a stop it's just common sense to do so because that is where ALL electric drive systems are not efficient. I understand the tendency of most ebikers that have throttle ebikes to just gun that throttle from a stop because acceleration is the best way to experience performance, but it does waste battery capacity.

How many gears do most electric mopeds and motorcycles have? How many do most electric cars have? ONE because while it would be more efficient for them to have gearing for getting moving from a stop it's not really cost effective just to improve the overall efficiently for that short period of time.

I'm sure the IGHs are wonderful but I ???? that that are really important if you have a powerful enough mid drive. Obviously most of the powerful hub drives on the motorcycle hybrid ebikes are going without gears.

The ebike industry wants you to believe you need those expensive forks, rear suspensions, derailleurs/IGH, etc. because they add profits and a lot more service $$s over the life of the bike. Don't let me tell anyone not to drink the marketing koolaid though. I'm just thinking it deserves a closer look if you are buying an ebike for commuting.
 

Mike TowpathTraveler

Well-Known Member
On an ebike I would think that most riders have enough energy to not need motor assist to get the bike to say 10mph before they begin to utilize assist. The very low speed range is where human power is most efficient (when a 200lb rider stands on the cranks they are generating over 150N-m of torque which is more than the vast majority of mid drives. Sure it would be tiring to sustain that but for for the 5-10 seconds to get going from a stop it's just common sense to do so because that is where ALL electric drive systems are not efficient. I understand the tendency of most ebikers that have throttle ebikes to just gun that throttle from a stop because acceleration is the best way to experience performance, but it does waste battery capacity.

How many gears do most electric mopeds and motorcycles have? How many do most electric cars have? ONE because while it would be more efficient for them to have gearing for getting moving from a stop it's not really cost effective just to improve the overall efficiently for that short period of time.

I'm sure the IGHs are wonderful but I ???? that that are really important if you have a powerful enough mid drive. Obviously most of the powerful hub drives on the motorcycle hybrid ebikes are going without gears.

The ebike industry wants you to believe you need those expensive forks, rear suspensions, derailleurs/IGH, etc. because they add profits and a lot more service $$s over the life of the bike. Don't let me tell anyone not to drink the marketing koolaid though. I'm just thinking it deserves a closer look if you are buying an ebike for commuting.
Ken, it looks like you moved the goal posts in your discussion; as we now are getting underway from a stop under human power, then switching to E-assist at around 10 mph. With that big chain ring and small rear sprocket that you mentioned, that's going to be a good workout on the commute.

To each their own, I guess. I believe the market has spoken in the fact that there does not appear to be a great demand or market for the kind of bike you speak of, but it's worth exploring and I look forward to seeing what you come up with here on these pages.

Myself, things like belt drive, IGH's, derailleurs featuring mountain face climbing gear rations, all have been part and parcel of this great technological boost towards increasing human efficiency on this thing with tubes, tires and spokes. Far from Kool-aid, it's about taking the human the furthest they can travel on a bike in the most energy efficient means possible, be it lighter weight, better gear ratios, less friction in IGH's, tire technology, the entire gamut!
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
...it seems everyone believes an effective ebike needs gears. I understand how important gearing is for technical mountain biking but for most commuting needs gears may not even make sense...With adequate motor torque gearing is not really needed....just go with a fixie gear ratio that provides the range of cadence you prefer at the range of speeds you feel most comfortable at and stop drinking the marketing koolaid that you have to have a derailleur or IGT. I think what you'll discover is that you'll work just a bit harder to go from stop to say 12mph but most of us can live with a little bit more bursts of exertion.
I've noticed the same (fast run through the gears) in some reviews but assumed it was for video/demonstration purposes - not that most folks or the reviewer would ride that way in practice.

I'm not sure I'm onboard with having less assist (or having to work harder) from start up to 10-12mph. Most of my approximate 35 mile commute is start/stop riding so if its mostly me powering the bike up to 12 mph then really I don't need an e-bike. I don't have throttle bikes by the way. It is definitely true that I could get by with fewer gears however I still want gears and I want a wide gear range. If I want to ride mostly in the lowest assist level on the commute, in order to get a good workout and to maximize battery range, then I feel like I need gears to maximize my contribution within that assist level and the gearing helps me do that.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Ken, it looks like you moved the goal posts in your discussion; as we now are getting underway from a stop under human power, then switching to E-assist at around 10 mph. With that big chain ring and small rear sprocket that you mentioned, that's going to be a good workout on the commute.

To each their own, I guess. I believe the market has spoken in the fact that there does not appear to be a great demand or market for the kind of bike you speak of, but it's worth exploring and I look forward to seeing what you come up with here on these pages.

Myself, things like belt drive, IGH's, derailleurs featuring mountain face climbing gear rations, all have been part and parcel of this great technological boost towards increasing human efficiency on this thing with tubes, tires and spokes. Far from Kool-aid, it's about taking the human the furthest they can travel on a bike in the most energy efficient means possible, be it lighter weight, better gear ratios, less friction in IGH's, tire technology, the entire gamut!
Here's a great article that discuses how the weight / efficiency paradigm has dominated biking for 50 years and does a good job of detailing how maybe that paradigm needs to be unseated to really optimize what having motorized assist means on a bike.

 
I guess it would be pretty easy to simulate those conditions to see if you can live with it. Just set your Nuvinci to maybe a middle gear and do your commute only varying the levels of assist. I live in a hilly area and on some hills I'm at the lowest gear and max assist and I'm sure glad when the crest rolls into view.