Move over R-M, there is a new sheriff in town !

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
For an experienced E-biker such as yourself who has installed Nyon on every bike by voiding the warranty, who has installed BikeSpeed RS Delimiter on bikes ( Delite, CUBE), changed lights, stem, fenders etc. (without R-M approval), I am sure things could have been better for you. R-M voids warranty on bikes if any of the original equipment is changed. Sometime we take risks and sometimes we don't and it is upto the discretion of the individual.
  • In your R-M could have sent you loaner wheel while waiting for the hub but they have no US office or spare parts to ship you.
  • I wish Cycle Monkey was faster in responding to your request...
  • Your dealer could have shipped you a wheel while waiting ...
Everything looks different in hindsight but none of the above happened.

it comes down how well this situation was handled by your dealer and the manufacturer. There are hundreds of cracked frames manufactured by specialized, hundreds of failed hubs of Trek Allant+ 9s, an oil leak in a Rohloff hub that had 6000 miles ... sure...
Ravi, The 6000 miles was the combined mileage on two bikes. The one with the issue was at about 1800 miles.

I agree that the dealer or R&M having or putting together a loaner wheel would have been an appropriate service and made a big difference in my experience. Bottom line for me, Rohloff made a lousy choice in their sole authorized warranty partner and Riese & Muller should have a tech and parts resource in North America given how many bikes are here and how much they cost.

As to the Nyon, before I ever installed one I contacted Bosch down in California and they verified that putting the Nyon on my bike would not effect the warranty, as it mounted on the existing Invuvia mount and did nothing to alter the motor. The only issue was that the unit is not supported in North America so I would be an orphan insofar as the display was concerned.

Regarding my use of the Bikespeed RS on the Cube and the Delight, I bought both of those bikes used and therefor without warranty. As you know these warranties are not transferable. This allowed me to do things to those bikes right away that I would have had to wait for the warranty to expire to do otherwise.

I like getting under the hood of my toys and tweaking them but not to the point of voiding a warranty.
 

TForan

Well-Known Member
Vice versa. You can flog the dead horse but the fact is R&M and Nikolai won't put the Chinese crap into their SUVs. Four million e-bikes is ridden in Germany alone.

Wrong again, I've ridden Bosch, Yamaha , Brose powered bikes several times. And you have NEVER ridden a Bafang Ultra powered bike, so find something else to BS about. They can't use the Ultra in Europe because of their nanny state regulations.
 

Akrotiri

Well-Known Member
Wrong again, I've ridden Bosch, Yamaha , Brose powered bikes several times. And you have NEVER ridden a Bafang Ultra powered bike, so find something else to BS about. They can't use the Ultra in Europe because of their nanny state regulations.
The bafang ultra just throws a lot of power down and that's about it. It's torque sensing is no where near as fluid and bionic feeling as the Bosch, Brose, Yamaha and Shimano motors. Bafang simply lacks the sophisticated sensors, patents, quality control, skilled labor pool, R&D and reliability compared to the others. And when the Bafang needs repairs guess what; it's time for a new e-bike.
 

TForan

Well-Known Member
The bafang ultra just throws a lot of power down and that's about it. It's torque sensing is no where near as fluid and bionic feeling as the Bosch, Brose, Yamaha and Shimano motors. Bafang simply lacks the sophisticated sensors, patents, quality control, skilled labor pool, R&D and reliability compared to the others. And when the Bafang needs repairs guess what; it's time for a new e-bike.

Going on my fourth year with mine and zero problems. Which bikes have you ridden that have the Ultra ? I think Roshan (Biktrix) has a leg up on others regarding programming. I also think that with the small amount of power with these euro spec motors, it is easier to make them smoother on power delivery. Personally, I never once thought that mine needed any refinement. YMMV.
 

Akrotiri

Well-Known Member
Going on my fourth year with mine and zero problems. Which bikes have you ridden that have the Ultra ? I think Roshan (Biktrix) has a leg up on others regarding programming. I also think that with the small amount of power with these euro spec motors, it is easier to make them smoother on power delivery. Personally, I never once thought that mine needed any refinement. YMMV.
My juiced RCS hyper, no problems yet but I haven't used it in 3 months as I gifted it to my brother and he rarely uses it. My critique of the torque sensing compared to Bosch is valid.
 

TForan

Well-Known Member
My juiced RCS hyper, no problems yet but I haven't used it in 3 months as I gifted it to my brother and he rarely uses it. My critique of the torque sensing compared to Bosch is valid.

But that isn't an Ultra powered bike. Have you ridden a bike with a Bafang Ultra ?
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
My juiced RCS hyper, no problems yet but I haven't used it in 3 months as I gifted it to my brother and he rarely uses it. My critique of the torque sensing compared to Bosch is valid.

Bosch's torque sensing is not special but you can not compare it to the offerings like RCS which rely only on a tmm4 sensor and a subpar controller.

For Bafang Ultra a fair comparison should be when it is fitted with a high quality controller that has a high sampling rate.

There are people on the forums who own ultra with archon controller who can chime in.
 

TForan

Well-Known Member
Bosch's torque sensing is not special but you can not compare it to the offerings like RCS which rely only on a tmm4 sensor and a subpar controller.

For Bafang Ultra a fair comparison should be when it is fitted with a high quality controller that has a high sampling rate.

There are people on the forums who own ultra with archon controller who can chime in.


Which Ultra powered bike did you ride ?
 

Akrotiri

Well-Known Member
But that isn't an Ultra powered bike. Have you ridden a bike with a Bafang Ultra ?
Same difference. The RCS has 1000 watts anything more like the Ultra is too much for todays e-bike components anyways. Are you cycling up Kilimanjaro with your e-bike?
 

TForan

Well-Known Member
Same difference. The RCS has 1000 watts anything more like the Ultra is too much for todays e-bike components anyways. Are you cycling up Kilimanjaro with your e-bike?

No, totally different . A hub vs a mid drive for one thing. I just wish people would stop opining about bikes they never rode.
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
The bafang ultra just throws a lot of power down and that's about it. It's torque sensing is no where near as fluid and bionic feeling as the Bosch, Brose, Yamaha and Shimano motors. Bafang simply lacks the sophisticated sensors, patents, quality control, skilled labor pool, R&D and reliability compared to the others. And when the Bafang needs repairs guess what; it's time for a new e-bike.

While that's (somewhat) true for the stock controller, I've upgraded my Bafang Ultra with 2300W Archon X1 (innotrace) controller and now it's as refined as my Yamaha PW. I rode both today and I'd actually give the nod to the Ultra. No way I'd go back to riding a 250W nominal bike, at least not unless I wanted a lighter build. I've had no issues getting parts from Bafang but worst case replacing the motor is not that expensive. No need to buy a new bike.
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
FWIW, I think we may see an Ultra based bike with FS, gates and IGH. Just a matter of time from what I hear, so don't throw $10K at a bike with a beanie weenie motor unless that's what you actually want.
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
While that's (somewhat) true for the stock controller, I've upgraded my Bafang Ultra with 2300W Archon X1 (innotrace) controller and now it's as refined as my Yamaha PW. I rode both today and I'd actually give the nod to the Ultra. No way I'd go back to riding a 250W nominal bike, at least not unless I wanted a lighter build. I've had no issues getting parts from Bafang but worst case replacing the motor is not that expensive. No need to buy a new bike.

You know you might make some people jealous with talk like that. 🤣
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
What are the weight specs for the R&M and NICOLAI? When you start throwing dual integrated batteries on a FS bike I am guessing you are close to 70 pounds so I'm not sure a lighter motor saves you all that much in terms of weight. I'd rather have the extra power when lugging or towing 40 pounds of groceries.
 

Akrotiri

Well-Known Member
While that's (somewhat) true for the stock controller, I've upgraded my Bafang Ultra with 2300W Archon X1 (innotrace) controller and now it's as refined as my Yamaha PW. I rode both today and I'd actually give the nod to the Ultra. No way I'd go back to riding a 250W nominal bike, at least not unless I wanted a lighter build. I've had no issues getting parts from Bafang but worst case replacing the motor is not that expensive. No need to buy a new bike.
Enjoy your 90lb motorcycle
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
Enjoy your 90lb motorcycle

FWIW, my Frey CC is 73 pounds with rack and fenders. I got passed by a motorcycle yesterday. No comparison! Even with 2300W I have a beanie weenie bike in comparison. Not that I use much more than 750W nominal. Watt Wagons UCP will be under 70 pounds.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
So many great German brands. Where do you think Rotwild fits into the the list? Groundbreakers? Copiers? Average?

Nicolai is truly one of the "masters" of this craft. If you read this piece, you will see his deep connection to the industry and immense knowledge.
It is rare to find someone of his caliber who have dedicated their entire career to master something so deeply. He was involved in the very original design of Horst link suspension and once that patent expired, many Chinese manufacturers started using that and copying that. It reminds me of the African adage ......." When a lion hunts, many hyenas are fed"


I would say he is a true pioneer.

ROTWILD also has deep engineering history. I have seen their bikes at Bike Show events but have not ridden one. I think you will really enjoy reading this:


I have read when the earlier Brose motors failed, ROTWILD's reputation took some hit but because they are so close to Brose geographically, it would be far easier than some of the US-based brands.
Their newer bikes with the Brose S Mag look impressive. https://www.rotwild.com/bikes-stuff/bikes/cross-over/rt750/tour/
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
...ROTWILD also has deep engineering history. I have seen their bikes at Bike Show events but have not ridden one. I think you will really enjoy reading this:

...

That was an interesting article with great photos. Thanks for posting.