My 1000w motor journey and fear mongering by users of the forum!

Robspace1

Active Member
Region
USA
So I spent a lot of time looking for a full suspension ebike that I can commute 14km to work and then back on a single charge. I finally found the Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra FS Pro 2 So I asked the community what they thought. I was new to a mid-drive motor. I know that Ontario only allows 500w for street legal e-bikes. I understand why this rule has to exist but I felt 500w was a little under powered for hills and what happens if I'm off rode and want to open it up? It's like making a rule that says engines in cars can only be 100hp which makes no sense, just make a speed limit and ticket those that go over it. So that was my first hurdle, people telling me I'm only allowed to buy 500w in Ontario, I get it people, The Ontario Highway traffic act says you cannot legally ride these on the road but it does not need to be stated like I'm a criminal. No cop is going to look at my bike and even have a clue how many watts it is. You can get fake wattage sticker, fake class stickers ETC. No police office is going to care. What they are going to do is see someone driving their bike, with a helmet commuting to work and not pay attention. If they see me driving at 55km/h weaving in and out of traffic, not stopping at stop signs, I am going to assume they are going to stop me because I'm being a bad driver and they are going to investigate the bike and find out its 1000w. Laws don't exist so that its black and white period! For instance, rolling a stop sign at 2am and you can 100% see traffic. This is not criminal or bad and its not why laws were created! They were created so when someone rolls a stop sign at 8am and almost hits 5 kids crossing the street on the way to school that there is a rule so you can prosecute/ticket them. You have to use your brain and be a good citizen! We almost all go 10 over the speed limit every day in Ontario, why? its against the law!! We all still do it. If we get into an accident then we have to take that risk into account and possibly be blamed because we were going 10 over. So just relax people with the soapbox stuff and telling people they cannot use a 1000w in Ontario because you can you just might get a ticket, that's it!! Stop fear mongering people!


Second were the people that said 1000w was too much power and it will just destroy the bike. We get that you think 1000w is too much and will throw your chain in the bush at the first wrong move. Yes 160nm of torque is a lot if applied wrong, but stop telling people that because you don't like them we should not like them. I have had my bike now for 4 months and I could not be happier with my choice. I was so afraid I made a bad choice because people on this forum fear mongering. I get that you think you are trying to help, but trying to get someone to see your point by making them fear what you fear is not okay. Show them a simple video like this one that explains how it's different. I get some ridders wont want to do this and will just want a hub motor (Like my partners bike, she hates mine) but everyone is different and people like automatic cars, some like manual cars. To be an automatic driver and tell another driver they will hate a manual and its just a horrible system. I get that is your opinion but relax a bit because you are pushing your opinion on others! If someone is asking the difference between a rear and mid drive sure its good to point out the differences!

I would have to say of all the things that were told to me over the posts the only thing that bothers me that NO ONE even mentions is the motor noise! On a trail it is loud as hell, on the street you can barely hear it.

In closing be be careful with your opinions on here, you guys almost talked me out of a bike that I now love with, lets keep discussion to facts and not fears, just let people know the differences but leave the fear out of it.

I hope this help others help others better in their decisions! Sorry Rant over but I felt like my quest for help was a trip down fear lane!
Your bike sounds good. I also have a 1000watt ebike. Made by Ecotric. Top speed is 28 mph. I weigh 240 and I need the power on the hills we have. When cruising along I adverage just 16 mph using assist. I am not looking to race out there. My bike is also considered to much power. I live in Wa. state. Any more then 750 is considered a motor vehicle. I got mine before that law went into effect. Been riding mine for 2 years now and love it. Ignore the haters. Just be safe out there. Mine is whisper quiet. The giveaway is the large battery it has. Have fun. Ignore those that wish they had more help on the hills! Lol
 

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J.R.

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I think that speed is an issue indeed, I've noticed that since I enjoy a scrambler style bike - everyone thinks I take it to the max all of the time for some weird reason. I think we've created our own subculture. It seems that some type of scrambler style bikers are looking for speed, and there are many scrambler bike owners who emphasize speed when doing reviews. Lots of speed races being podcast today. This is one facet of ebiking (speed and moped design) that appears to make people think that all scrambler style ebike owners are into speed. Some of us use our moped ebike for work, to shop, attend appoints, pick up kids and then go home - all safely, like other bike riders do (wow). There is this fake moped/scrambler rider personae generated by marketing mostly, that makes people think that these beasts are dangerous ebikes. In fact, they are probably safer to get out of jams with in a hurry with than any f i l l in the b l a n k of your favorite entry level clunker (please do ride slow thank you . . . ) Don't judge people by what they ride. We try not to judge your . . . thing. . .
You don't want to be lumped in with all the irresponsible idiots out there and I get that. Neither do I. None of us should do that and I don't think people here are doing that. That line of thinking is the same for legal ebike riders. They purchased a legally defined class 1, 2 or 3 ebike to ride and then they find they are being lumped in with electric mopeds, scooters and mini bikes that are illegally being used on paths and trails. Worse is that they fear the hard, fought for acceptance will be taken away due to all the illegal power bikes.

It's taken a long time and a lot of work to get ebikes accepted by both the public and the law. There are clearly defined regulations that define what an ebike is. Those definitions are used to regulate where ebikes can be ridden. These types of definitions are also used for automobiles, trucks and ATV's to regulate where they can be used.

I don't think anyone here is against e-mopeds. Legally they aren't ebikes and shouldn't be called ebikes. Everyone of us hates to see news reports of people behaving badly, reported as "ebiker caught riding....", only to find out it was a moped or mini bike. The story never gets corrected. It's never about the rider, it's about the device and people fear being banned from trails and paths. The comments expressed are not personal. We need an all the above approach to transportation, but all the above will not be allowed on every path and trail venue.
 

gioflowers

Active Member
Region
Canada
You don't want to be lumped in with all the irresponsible idiots out there and I get that. Neither do I. None of us should do that and I don't think people here are doing that. That line of thinking is the same for legal ebike riders. They purchased a legally defined class 1, 2 or 3 ebike to ride and then they find they are being lumped in with electric mopeds, scooters and mini bikes that are illegally being used on paths and trails. Worse is that they fear the hard, fought for acceptance will be taken away due to all the illegal power bikes.

It's taken a long time and a lot of work to get ebikes accepted by both the public and the law. There are clearly defined regulations that define what an ebike is. Those definitions are used to regulate where ebikes can be ridden. These types of definitions are also used for automobiles, trucks and ATV's to regulate where they can be used.

I don't think anyone here is against e-mopeds. Legally they aren't ebikes and shouldn't be called ebikes. Everyone of us hates to see news reports of people behaving badly, reported as "ebiker caught riding....", only to find out it was a moped or mini bike. The story never gets corrected. It's never about the rider, it's about the device and people fear being banned from trails and paths. The comments expressed are not personal. We need an all the above approach to transportation, but all the above will not be allowed on every path and trail venue.
I'll stick with *ebike* regardless. I don't usually allow cancel culture fools to dictate to me. People in this forum just love to shut others down. It's a past-time here, a hobby for many. The EBIKES moniker remains however, and it is here to stay. We moped style EBIKE riders who ride responsibly will continue to fight back against your futile and pointless collective narrative about "mopeds" and then ignore your continued rants.

My Rides: RadRunner Plus (Bolton upgraded), Voltbike Nitro, Michael Blast Outsider (750w), Rize Liberty (1000w), Apollo City
THROTTLE LOVE

The Canadian: https://epiccycles.ca/product/electric-bikes/bluerev-canadian/
 
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DavidRvR

Active Member
Region
USA
I ride my bike like it's a class 2 when on the road and never go over 30km/h so please explain how I am the problem. Get off the soap box.
Seen people go faster without the battery... So people get worked up over a sticker... Its how you handle it that matters.

Some people are so scared of breaking every law and because they are they feel you should also because it makes them secure.

Seen it in a few topics.. Im not one to brag and certainly wont or wouldn't brag about spandex but some enjoy it and to feel comfortable they want you to wear it also... Not going to happen.

but I will add... I have a throttle... And who cares.
 

rtp

Active Member
Region
USA
AH statistics. Over 7000 pedestrians were killed in the US last year.
SOOOOOOO walking is 7 times more dangerous than riding any kind of bike.
Eh, even worse use of them.
Sure, walking is 7x more dangerous - assuming there are ONLY 7x more people walking than riding bikes.
Same reason raw #s without adjusting 'per capita' or other normalization are pretty much worthless stats, just scare tactics(news and politicians often) or ignorance..
 

Elkman

Active Member
Watts is a measure of the power draw of a motor. It is like saying a gas engine is a 20 gallon per hour motor. The power output for an electric motor is measured in Newton meters. So long as a motor provides 35 Nm it is going to provide sufficient power for most riders on and off the pavement.
 

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Watts is a measure of the power draw of a motor. It is like saying a gas engine is a 20 gallon per hour motor. The power output for an electric motor is measured in Newton meters. So long as a motor provides 35 Nm it is going to provide sufficient power for most riders on and off the pavement.

uh, not really? newton meters is a measurement of torque, not power. equivalent to the imperial unit lb-ft. without knowing at what speed the motor can generate said torque, it’s not the complete picture, just like a car could have 400hp and 200lb-ft of torque or 200hp and 200lb-ft of torque.

but i agree, assuming the 35 Nm is produced at a reasonable rotational speed for biking, sure, that’s enough.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Watts is a measure of the power draw of a motor. It is like saying a gas engine is a 20 gallon per hour motor. The power output for an electric motor is measured in Newton meters. So long as a motor provides 35 Nm it is going to provide sufficient power for most riders on and off the pavement.
uh, not really? newton meters is a measurement of torque, not power. equivalent to the imperial unit lb-ft. without knowing at what speed the motor can generate said torque, it’s not the complete picture, just like a car could have 400hp and 200lb-ft of torque or 200hp and 200lb-ft of torque.

but i agree, assuming the 35 Nm is produced at a reasonable rotational speed for biking, sure, that’s enough.

Enough for what? The only way I would agree is if we were talking about a normally loaded bike running on a level paved surface and just a minimum amount of wind. It would help if this sample bike was a mid drive, able to take advantage of it's gearing, but there's no mention of that.

However, when talking hub drives (geared or direct drive) 35nm may not be near "enough"! An obvious example might be a heavily loaded bike facing a big hill. Running on grass into a 20mph wind might be another example. A hill steep and long enough to overheat a 35nm motor? A commuter that needs reliable transportation in ALL conditions? A bike with fat tires?

NOBODY can predict how much torque will be "enough" for all our varied uses. You guys are welcome to your opinions, but rookies should know also it's pretty easy to make a case for 100+nm motors when considering bikes able to go about anywhere you point them.
 

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Enough for what? The only way I would agree is if we were talking about a normally loaded bike running on a level paved surface and just a minimum amount of wind. It would help if this sample bike was a mid drive, able to take advantage of it's gearing, but there's no mention of that.

However, when talking hub drives (geared or direct drive) 35nm may not be near "enough"! An obvious example might be a heavily loaded bike facing a big hill. Running on grass into a 20mph wind might be another example. A hill steep and long enough to overheat a 35nm motor? A commuter that needs reliable transportation in ALL conditions? A bike with fat tires?

NOBODY can predict how much torque will be "enough" for all our varied uses. You guys are welcome to your opinions, but rookies should know also it's pretty easy to make a case for 100+nm motors when considering bikes able to go about anywhere you point them.

i agree, i was mostly responding to the notion that nm was a measure of power, which it is not.
 

BigBoyEbike

New Member
So I spent a lot of time looking for a full suspension ebike that I can commute 14km to work and then back on a single charge. I finally found the Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra FS Pro 2 So I asked the community what they thought. I was new to a mid-drive motor. I know that Ontario only allows 500w for street legal e-bikes. I understand why this rule has to exist but I felt 500w was a little under powered for hills and what happens if I'm off rode and want to open it up? It's like making a rule that says engines in cars can only be 100hp which makes no sense, just make a speed limit and ticket those that go over it. So that was my first hurdle, people telling me I'm only allowed to buy 500w in Ontario, I get it people, The Ontario Highway traffic act says you cannot legally ride these on the road but it does not need to be stated like I'm a criminal. No cop is going to look at my bike and even have a clue how many watts it is. You can get fake wattage sticker, fake class stickers ETC. No police office is going to care. What they are going to do is see someone driving their bike, with a helmet commuting to work and not pay attention. If they see me driving at 55km/h weaving in and out of traffic, not stopping at stop signs, I am going to assume they are going to stop me because I'm being a bad driver and they are going to investigate the bike and find out its 1000w. Laws don't exist so that its black and white period! For instance, rolling a stop sign at 2am and you can 100% see traffic. This is not criminal or bad and its not why laws were created! They were created so when someone rolls a stop sign at 8am and almost hits 5 kids crossing the street on the way to school that there is a rule so you can prosecute/ticket them. You have to use your brain and be a good citizen! We almost all go 10 over the speed limit every day in Ontario, why? its against the law!! We all still do it. If we get into an accident then we have to take that risk into account and possibly be blamed because we were going 10 over. So just relax people with the soapbox stuff and telling people they cannot use a 1000w in Ontario because you can you just might get a ticket, that's it!! Stop fear mongering people!


Second were the people that said 1000w was too much power and it will just destroy the bike. We get that you think 1000w is too much and will throw your chain in the bush at the first wrong move. Yes 160nm of torque is a lot if applied wrong, but stop telling people that because you don't like them we should not like them. I have had my bike now for 4 months and I could not be happier with my choice. I was so afraid I made a bad choice because people on this forum fear mongering. I get that you think you are trying to help, but trying to get someone to see your point by making them fear what you fear is not okay. Show them a simple video like this one that explains how it's different. I get some ridders wont want to do this and will just want a hub motor (Like my partners bike, she hates mine) but everyone is different and people like automatic cars, some like manual cars. To be an automatic driver and tell another driver they will hate a manual and its just a horrible system. I get that is your opinion but relax a bit because you are pushing your opinion on others! If someone is asking the difference between a rear and mid drive sure its good to point out the differences!

I would have to say of all the things that were told to me over the posts the only thing that bothers me that NO ONE even mentions is the motor noise! On a trail it is loud as hell, on the street you can barely hear it.

In closing be be careful with your opinions on here, you guys almost talked me out of a bike that I now love with, lets keep discussion to facts and not fears, just let people know the differences but leave the fear out of it.

I hope this help others help others better in their decisions! Sorry Rant over but I felt like my quest for help was a trip down fear lane!
Your post reminds me of when I began to ride my Ego electric scooter (beautiful, all aluminum, originally made in Cambridge, Massachusetts, now out of business, but there’s one fell out in California. They’re still carries parts.) I was on a committee at the college, where I taught that was responsible for coming up with ideas to lower our footprint. I was responsible for making the bike pavilion E bike friendly and so they asked me to be on this environmental committee. The thing that was hilarious was I’m riding the scooter all around and every once in a blue moon, a police officer would pull me over, “WTF is that?”, they would often say, trying to figure out if they wanted to bother, giving me a ticket, and if they did, what was the violation! I for one would be absolutely unconcerned about breaking engine size laws, especially in Canada! No offense to my friends in the great white north, but it’s off and said that you can tell a person is Canadian because they apologize when they bump into an inanimate object like a table or a chair! I think you should buy what you want, and you should feel that you’re safe on your ride, and if more horse power is, what makes you feel safe, that’s the most important thing of all. I would like to add, however that I am totally against the trend of six and seven and $8000 E bikes did go 70 miles an hour or what have you. It’s just not in the spirit of bicycling!
 

MrCaspan

Active Member
Your post reminds me of when I began to ride my Ego electric scooter (beautiful, all aluminum, originally made in Cambridge, Massachusetts, now out of business, but there’s one fell out in California. They’re still carries parts.) I was on a committee at the college, where I taught that was responsible for coming up with ideas to lower our footprint. I was responsible for making the bike pavilion E bike friendly and so they asked me to be on this environmental committee. The thing that was hilarious was I’m riding the scooter all around and every once in a blue moon, a police officer would pull me over, “WTF is that?”, they would often say, trying to figure out if they wanted to bother, giving me a ticket, and if they did, what was the violation! I for one would be absolutely unconcerned about breaking engine size laws, especially in Canada! No offense to my friends in the great white north, but it’s off and said that you can tell a person is Canadian because they apologize when they bump into an inanimate object like a table or a chair! I think you should buy what you want, and you should feel that you’re safe on your ride, and if more horse power is, what makes you feel safe, that’s the most important thing of all. I would like to add, however that I am totally against the trend of six and seven and $8000 E bikes did go 70 miles an hour or what have you. It’s just not in the spirit of bicycling!
Thanks for the feedback! and yes I agree even with my bike I thought I wanted to go faster but what I really wanted was torque. anything above 42 km/h is scarry as s*it on a bike. you wipe out it's going to hut bad for a long time. But what I do like is going 35 km/h and having a peppy bike that can speed up easily to 42 very quick. Hills are a joke to the engine. this is what I like the power for personally. I rarely go over 40 just because it's also not efficient. the faster you go the more wind resistance goes up on an exponential curve. so the power needed to take you from 35-40 is exponentially higher then what it takes to go from 30-35. it takes much more power and drains the battery faster. I like putting along at 20-27 km/h with peddle assist on my rides.
 

BigBoyEbike

New Member
Thanks for the feedback! and yes I agree even with my bike I thought I wanted to go faster but what I really wanted was torque. anything above 42 km/h is scarry as s*it on a bike. you wipe out it's going to hut bad for a long time. But what I do like is going 35 km/h and having a peppy bike that can speed up easily to 42 very quick. Hills are a joke to the engine. this is what I like the power for personally. I rarely go over 40 just because it's also not efficient. the faster you go the more wind resistance goes up on an exponential curve. so the power needed to take you from 35-40 is exponentially higher then what it takes to go from 30-35. it takes much more power and drains the battery faster. I like putting along at 20-27 km/h with peddle assist on my rides.
Yes, you hit the nail right on the head. Torque torque torque. My dad wants told me that the reason why One would want a fast automobile wasn’t to go fast all the time, but to be able to go fast when your life depended on it, like to get out of the way of an oncoming runaway car, or to be able to pass safely when you’re going uphill things like that. I was wondering if you have a pedal assist a thumb or a twist which do you prefer in general or I guess another way of putting it is when one is talking about fast e-bikes, does that automatically preclude pedal assist and floral or twist throttle
 

MrCaspan

Active Member
Mine is a peddle assist with torque sensing. I don't think I would want an e-bike without torque sensing, it's like intelligent peddling. and then I always love having a throttle on the bike. I have honestly never tried the half twist hand throttles as I was told by a few users it's very strenuous on the wrist and after a longer ride your wrist hurts. As well there is the potential to do what's called whiskey throttle where you use it by accident in a crash. there is also the quarter circle thumb throttle when you press down and the harder you press down the faster you go. I used to have this throttle but in previous bikes I found this throttle based on it's design broke as every single bump you hit get pushed right into the plastic stop this throttle had on it. So if you were pressing it down to max and you hit a bump, that bump would be pushed into that weak plastic limit that stops the throttle for going past max setting. Once that limit was weakened or broken you go past the max setting it just disconnects the throttle and you have no power. So basically it's broken or you get a really glitchey max throttle that cuts in and out. So I did some time looking and I got a sweeping throttle for the bike. is kind of like what a 3 wheeler would have on it. it hangs under the handle and you push it towards the front of the bike. And big bumps you hit your thumb would just slide down and off the throttle instead of damaging the throttle. See the attached photo for an example of this kind of throttle. I really like this kind as it's more relaxed feeling, a little more ergo friendly and it snaps right into the existing wiring connector harness.
 

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gioflowers

Active Member
Region
Canada
Mine is a peddle assist with torque sensing. I don't think I would want an e-bike without torque sensing, it's like intelligent peddling. and then I always love having a throttle on the bike. I have honestly never tried the half twist hand throttles as I was told by a few users it's very strenuous on the wrist and after a longer ride your wrist hurts. As well there is the potential to do what's called whiskey throttle where you use it by accident in a crash. there is also the quarter circle thumb throttle when you press down and the harder you press down the faster you go. I used to have this throttle but in previous bikes I found this throttle based on it's design broke as every single bump you hit get pushed right into the plastic stop this throttle had on it. So if you were pressing it down to max and you hit a bump, that bump would be pushed into that weak plastic limit that stops the throttle for going past max setting. Once that limit was weakened or broken you go past the max setting it just disconnects the throttle and you have no power. So basically it's broken or you get a really glitchey max throttle that cuts in and out. So I did some time looking and I got a sweeping throttle for the bike. is kind of like what a 3 wheeler would have on it. it hangs under the handle and you push it towards the front of the bike. And big bumps you hit your thumb would just slide down and off the throttle instead of damaging the throttle. See the attached photo for an example of this kind of throttle. I really like this kind as it's more relaxed feeling, a little more ergo friendly and it snaps right into the existing wiring connector harness.
Throttle styles as a personal choice takes into consideration body dynamics. As a person with shorter members, I find that the twist throttle greatly outranks any thumb throttle style, especially the excruciatingly painful side swipe throttle on my Michael Blast. My shorter members require the twist. The thumb throttles are much too outsized for the littles.
 

6zfshdb

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Northeast Pennsylvania
Throttle styles as a personal choice takes into consideration body dynamics. As a person with shorter members, I find that the twist throttle greatly outranks any thumb throttle style, especially the excruciatingly painful side swipe throttle on my Michael Blast. My shorter members require the twist. The thumb throttles are much too outsized for the littles.
This product allows you to have both a twist and thumb throttle at the same time:


It's easily removed when not needed.
 

gioflowers

Active Member
Region
Canada
This product allows you to have both a twist and thumb throttle at the same time:


It's easily removed when not needed.
Yes I remember seeing these on social media years back. People just started out by making their own with zip ties, or something. I think a few people have even designed their own to a level that they are selling on etsy now.

I appreciate your suggestion to change a twist to a thumb, but maybe your reply was misplaced because I'm the one looking to change all of my thumbs for twists.

In regards to my stated issue that you quoted, with the Michael Blast side-swipe throttle - MB does sell a twist for the Greaser that will both match and fit my Outsider. So I won't have loose the MB oh so special comfortable and cushioned hand grips. Funny, I haven't ridden the Outsider for a while now, and I still feel my thumb joint ache from so much time on that bike. It doesn't hurt, it just feels stressed. Thanks again.