My new Custom GMAC build, now a BBSHD as well

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Figured you'd have a fit if I ran that chart. I figured the results were relevant enough to run it anyway - with a disclaimer clearly stating "Best" can be viewed a hundred ways. See which YOU would prefer!". And you still get mad.... 🤣
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
I did their Roxim lights on two bikes. I’m really liking gear that works at a range of voltages. Especially Grin controllers. Baserunner in a battery base makes for a very clean build. Add OS X programming for a complete win for me.

I get nothing out of regen but really like the regen braking. And the reverse on the trike. Top the kit off with a single connector with the RTR kits and I’m a fan.

I did see the Phaserunner Motor Cable Harness for BBSHD. Nice!
I have the roxim front light as well, I ran it on the GMAC bike until I got the SPL-01
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/lights/roxim-x4-ebike-light.html

Works ok as an 'absolute minimum' for offroad(I carry extra lights in my camelback) but fine for most bike path stuff IMHO. My only issue with it is that if plugged into the CA3 power port, it will reset the CA3 when you turn it on going as far as loosing any trip data. It has an excellent beam cutoff so its good if you encounter pedestrians/hikers. With my higher quality pure offroad lights, I get comments from pedestrians/hikers even on the lowest setting.

That being said, the SPL-01 is just a better light in every way except for size. Same nice beam cutoff and a daytime running light/low/high modes. It doesnt reset the CA3 when powered on. When the outside light gets low enough, it only has low/high modes. There is quite alot of artifacts in the beam pattern but serves as my main offroad light for any trail I can do on my rigid ebikes with 2.6 tires.

I have minimal need for regen but it will be fun to play with. Who knows, maybe it will be life changing:cool:
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
Surly Troll- GMAC update
Kudos to Grin for quick shipping even from Canada. I orderd my new GMAC replacement on 5/28 and got it in exactly one week later on 6/4 (on a saturday no less) using Canada Post. Im getting pretty good at building wheels and had the wheel built up in just over 1 hour. New motor works like a charm. Also loaded the Phaserunner with GMAC defaults from Grin (option in the Phaserunner software, downloads data from Grin) that differed from what I was using before (all manual inputs). The motor feels much peppier Im guessing due to these changes although my old motor might have been degrading over time. Also loaded new CA firmware (beta 3.23b) in preparation for playing with regen.

Interesting video from Grin on the 3.2 software (note mention of hub motor with integrated torque sensor at 2:20)

As mentioned before, I doubt I will have any significant use of regen but it will be fun to play with.

An interesting thing to note is that regen cause the motor to heat up same as if its producing power (40:13 in the following video)...makes sense, just never thought about it

Grin has been great at working with me on returning the motor. There might actually be a warranty claim although its too soon to tell at the moment and not anything that I am expecting. We will see what the diagnosis is.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Minnesnowta
An interesting thing to note is that regen cause the motor to heat up same as if its producing power (40:13 in the following video)...makes sense, just never thought about it
Hubsinks? I used them for my new 9C from Grin. Their controller and gear leaves most kit sellers in its dust.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Re: GMAC regen. Agree most will have no use for the regen. from a charging standpoint (mostly for folks riding in the hills). It was the regen. braking potential that had my interest. Are you planning on setting that up and using that to stop/slow the bike?
 

mclewis1

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Fredericton, NB
Hubsinks? I used them for my new 9C from Grin. Their controller and gear leaves most kit sellers in its dust.
I wonder if more folks investigate the use of regen whether we'll also see more use of heat managing/reducing items like hubsinks and Statorade? I mean, when will we give the motor's a break? You climb the hill and everything gets hot and now going down the other side with regen enabled the motor doesn't get it's usual opportunity to cool down.

I'm still looking forward to having a fused clutch option for popular smaller geared hub motors, so we can fairly easily play with locked or unlocked operations. I'm thinking of buying a spare gear/clutch assembly for one of my Shengyi motors just to play around with a locked clutch (and have a replacement set of gears).

Or perhaps for the best of both worlds (really dreaming here) we'll get a remotely controllable clutch assembly ... one that can be locked up via external command - ideally an electrical one.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Minnesnowta
Sadly regen gets more attention for charging then braking. And why I stick with Grin controllers. The braking on my. front hub bike is awesome. It’s a Lyen controller before I started Grinning.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Minnesnowta
I mean, when will we give the motor's a break? You climb the hill and everything gets hot and now going down the other side with regen enabled the motor doesn't get it's usual opportunity to cool down.
Contrary to many here a DD hub is very easily monitored and anything that reduces heat is a good thing.

What are the internal temps on Bafang motors after a steep climb?

Your motor temps?
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
Re: GMAC regen. Agree most will have no use for the regen. from a charging standpoint (mostly for folks riding in the hills). It was the regen. braking potential that had my interest. Are you planning on setting that up and using that to stop/slow the bike?
Yes, I am more interested in the braking than the charging. I will definately be setting that up soon. No idea on what the eventual outcome will be
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Minnesnowta
Yes, I am more interested in the braking than the charging. I will definately be setting that up soon. No idea on what the eventual outcome will be
I first set the regen brakes to high on the CA3. Stopping power was AWESOME once a good setting tested OK.
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
when will we give the motor's a break? You climb the hill and everything gets hot and now going down the other side with regen enabled the motor doesn't get it's usual opportunity to cool down.

I don't think this is true. Regen braking should not be creating the kind of heat motor generates when climbing a steep hill.

Btw regen is nice but the real benefit is braking which is great.
 

mclewis1

Well-Known Member
Region
Canada
City
Fredericton, NB
I don't think this is true. Regen braking should not be creating the kind of heat motor generates when climbing a steep hill.

Btw regen is nice but the real benefit is braking which is great.
No, probably not the same amount of heat as going up but it's still adding some heat, where in the past when coasting downhill the motor was cooling off.

I agree, and we've generally been referring generically to regen as providing either or both functions (recharge voltage to the battery and an additional loading of the motor to provide a braking action).
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
Initial GMAC Regen Ride Report
I by no means claim to be a regen expert, just want to share my experiences playing with Regen on the new CA3 3.2 beta software. Most all of what I report here is simple physics when you think about what is going on but many might not have realized (like myself) how it might manifest itself in real life riding.

I do not have brake cutout switches or any desire to use them. I hate them on any ebike I have ridden.

I have both a 52v 13.5ah and 52V 17.0ah pack. I setup the Phaserunner to limit regen current to 7amps which limits regen power to about 350watts. I could go higher (up to 1C).

Regen if your pack is fully charged will not be effective if the phaserunner is setup to not overcharge the battery.

I setup my CA3 for both Backpedal Regen and Regen based off the AuxD input (what is used to change PAS levels).

I could never get Backpedal Regen to work either in position mode (the more you backpedal the more regen) or throttle mode (backpedal engages regen which can be modulated with throttle). The erider BB is a 1 wire setup which means that it cannot sense rotation direction so that is the likely explanation. I have an email to Grin to confirm.

The AuxD setup just allows negative assist levels (regen of course) and is very intuitive to use (although not convenient in all situations). It can be setup so it reset to the power on default assist level when coming to a complete stop which I have done. I initially setup 5 regen levels

Level 1 - only slightly noticable (and power (which is positive) in display seems the same as power when coasting)
Level 2-Level 5 - all levels are -350watts, the higher levels seem to reach 350watts quicker but Im not 100% sure on this. Braking at -350 watts is significant but not enough to lock the rear wheel. I got up to 30mph going downhill on a 6% grade and -350 watts took probably a football field to stop (AUW of rider an bike is around 300#).

So next step is to go to 10 regen levels to have more fidelity. I doubt I will up the Phaserunner regen max power as I dont see how I would need that much braking on a button. The button just seems more of a way to limit downhill coasting speed which seems about right at 350watts. We will see how I use it in the future

An interesting thing about negative assist levels, you can theoretically charge your bike if you pedal with negative assist although its not fun (I tried it).

Simple stats from todays ride:
21.7 miles, 15.6mph average speed, 1250ft elevation.
7.1% regen at .52ah regen ( I used it alot, probably not more than 3% on typical rides)

Really bummed about the lack of backpedal regen👎

An interesting thing I tried was 350watts regen and just throttle use. Obviously, the throttle signal overrides the regen but it re-engages when your off the throttle so you have something similar to 1 pedal driving in electric cars.
 
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AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Sounds like it's going to be quite a learning curve - so many options?
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
GMAC Regen Ride Report Update
Grin confirmed that the Erider BB and its single wire doesnt work with backpedaling so no backpedaling regen.

I might try to figure out where to put a simple button on my handlebars to use instead of a brake switch (perhaps inline with a brake switch which might be safer due to muscle memory in a panic stop situation...I always have to use the rear brake lever, the button is extra for motor cutout/regen). I have several handlebar buttons laying around but no room on my handlebars and I am a handlebar minimalist.

Did a ride today with up to 9 regen levels(max allowed, was 5 last time) on the AuxD (pas level switches) with grades up to 10%.

Battery used today was charged to a higher voltage so regen power is a tad different.

Regen level(-1) - I feel a slight drag but power is the same as no assist. Speed seems unchanged
Regen level(-2)- seems to generate about -100W, good for mild speed check
Regen level(-3 to -9) - all are -400W (higher than last time due to higher battery voltage). The 400W is determined by the max regen current of 7A set in the phaserunner

I havnt tested the Regen(-2) much in this ride, mostly Regen(-3).

Coming down a section of paved road between 8-10% where I can reach peak speeds of around 40mph(I typically brake check it to 30mph). With Regen(-3), it stayed at a constant 24mph and -400W. Motor temps didnt seem to increase much if any that I could tell (63-64c). It was about 65F during this ride.

I think the CA needs a max regen parameter in percent(based on the philosophy of how it all seems to work). Currently the way it works is that the phaserunner is set to the max regen current but the CA (using the AuxD) independently of the phaserunner only has the number of levels (limited to 9) which makes regen steps = 100%/number of levels. For my situation, the regen steps are to big. I will send a request to Grin for this. Hopefully this makes sense. Basically the 100%/number of levels needs to be configurable%/number of levels.

Update:
There is a Max Regen Phase Current(defaults to 90A) in Phaserunner setup which is different thant the Max Battery Regen Current. Pretty sure this is how I would control the max regen mentioned above. WIll provide a ride report/update when I try this.
 
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linklemming

Well-Known Member
GMAC Regen Ride Report Update
The Max Regen Phase Current(defaults to 90A) in Phaserunner setup didnt seem to have as effect at the regen levels I am using (they must be way below). Lowering it to 50A didnt have any effect on the regen level vs power.

The phaserunner does regen based off throttle out voltage from the CA. The Phaserunner Suite default is 0.85V to start regen with max regen at 0.0V. I had it set to 0.85V to 0.2V so changing the lower value to 0.0 should give more fidelity for each AuxD negative PAS level. To taylor AuxD regen levels vs actual regen seem to be a combo of the number of CA AuxD regen steps (0-9, 0 is deactivated), Phaserunner Max Regen Phase Current, Phaserunner Max Regen Battery Current, Phaserunner Brake(Regen) start voltage(the higher value) and Phaserunner Brake(Regen) Max voltage(the lower value).

Overall, I think I will use braking/regen more than I thought. Im going to figure out how to have a dedicated switch to activate and use throttle to modulate. A perfect solution would be to have a proportional brake lever and I could just ditch the rear brake. I cant even imagine what 90A of regen braking would be like

Still bummed about the lack of backpedal regen with the erider Torque sensing handlebar. A great use for backpedal regen would be when I have my hands on the center part of my handlebars
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AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
A second throttle, on the opposite side of the handlebars, for proportional regen signal?

I like the idea of setting something up with the LH brake handle too....

What are Grin's thoughts here? What are they suggesting?
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Minnesnowta
A second throttle, on the opposite side of the handlebars, for proportional regen signal?

I like the idea of setting something up with the LH brake handle too....

What are Grin's thoughts here? What are they suggesting?