need ebike for urban hauling of lots of kit, often with a trailer (London, occasional hill)

percymon

Active Member
I recommend you test ride a Wisper Wayfarer, several dealers around London, their design office is in Kent, and the bikes are imported from China. This is a new model and so the difficulty is getting hold of one, the owner reports he has sold 3,000 and is quoting delivery in spring 2021. Available with either hub or mid-drive motors, the mid-drive model in standard configuration plus the optional 700wh battery pack is GBP 2,549 though reportedly prices and delivery times are going to rise, and with the larger battery weighs 29kg/63lb. The mid-drive has a torque pedal assist sensor and a throttle, the hub drive has a torque sensor upgrade option. The mid-drive motor is a new one, the Wuxi TruckRun M01 the Wisper owner says it was designed by the Bafang Max design team. The motor has just started appearing here in the US on the Priority Current.

Might struggle with the weight aspect on the Wayfarer - the 7 model is 135Kg max load which only gives 15Kg cargo capacity.

Cube Touring or Kathmandu have 140Kg max load, again not so great carrying capacity with a 120Kg rider

Haibike Sduro Trekking 4.0 also limited to 130Kg

A Cube Cargo Sport Hybrid would give you plenty of load capacity (120Kg rider + 100Kg cargo) but somewhat out of budget https://www.cube.eu/uk/2021/e-bikes...argo-hybrid/cube-cargo-hybrid-sport-bluenred/

This Kona UTE might be worth a look / more research ref weight carrying... about on budget https://www.pureelectric.com/collec...ts/kona-electric-ute-electric-cargo-bike-2019 At least this one has a powerful mid drive and decent battery.

Around budget are the Babboe bikes... https://www.babboe.co.uk/cargo-bikes/filter/elektrisch--yes

the Pro Trike looks a possibility with its lockable front box and 80Kg cargo, but the seat limit is 100Kg https://www.pureelectric.com/collections/cargo-electric-bikes/products/babboe-pro-trike-e-374wh

same issue with the city-e, same 100Kg seat limit.. https://www.pureelectric.com/collec...es/products/babboe-city-e-electric-cargo-bike

It might be worth a discussion with Babboe on your requirements though - something like there Dog-e model may well be able to accept 120Kg rider if the cargo weight is <60Kg for example. They are one of the more cargo focussed brands in the UK.
 

chasg

Member
One thing you could do, if you have a terminal crimper/stripper a drill motor some drills, safety glasses and a vise, is convert a mongoose Envoy. About a $700 cargo bicycle with mechanical disk brakes like mine which stop me well. Envoy has footplates to keep your panniers out of the shifter, which I see the Reiss & mueller lacks. Then you could spend $1100 on a front hub motor and 17 AH battery, $60 on aluminum angle & stainless 5 mm screws & elastic stop nuts. You can't buy a front motor bike because of the liability of falls, but the rule is: no power on steel plates, rock, mud covered roads. I love having a front motor, allows me to have 8 speeds on the back. Rear hub motors only allow 7 speed sprocket clusters, and that wasn't enough speeds to get up 15% grades without power. (The throttle does fail sometimes in heavy rain). There are 11:34 7 speed rear hubs cataloged, but nobody ever had one in stock in the US. 14:28 only. See the mongoose envoy thread under diy kits forum.
All those tools are only about $200, handy to have IMHO. Use taiwanese or US crimp terminals, the ****ese ones melt out at 30 amps. T&B, Ideal, Panduit, TE connectivity (AMP), 3M, Dorman. A klein or ideal crimp tool is longer and makes better crimps IMHO.
If you buy a power wheel separately from the bike, you may be able to sneak a Mac12 hub motor through customs. 500W. European regs require e-bikes to be limited to 350 W, pretty wimpy IMHO. More power, they are motorcycles with licences, insurance, driver's license. Mac12 has more torque than the 10 (faster starts) and a lower top speed. Mine will go about 25 on the flat.
Two other advantages of front hub motor & front mount battery self installed. It makes the bike easier to roll into the garage over the step not having 12 lb on the back plus the cargo. It also helps balance the bike, the two ends are more equal in weight. Wiggles less. I had a rear hub motor for a while, didn't like it as much as this setup.
BTW this bike is getting close to 8000 miles use. 1 set brake pads, 4 sets tires, shifter cable, front fender (hits my foot), 2 headlights, 1 hub motor worn out. 5 saddles & still looking for a bicycle lounge chair for my fat free hips.
I was hoping that I wouldn't have to convert a bike myself (I'm handy, but I'd rather be working than working on a bike, if you know what I mean :) You've given excellent and thorough advice though, if it comes to it, I know it'll help me to do any conversion. And 8000 miles, oh wow!
 

chasg

Member
Thank you! I'm Polish and the English way of transcribing the pronunciation is still a mystery for me :) Would you write for me how you pronounce Streatham please?
Oh, the store is equally distant from the Tower Bridge....
You have flawless written english, for someone whose native language is something else (but I'm not surprised, most of my Polish friends here in London are the same).

Streatham sounds like "Strat-ham" or "Stret-ham" (sort of inbetween the two). Emphasis on the first syllable, but only slightly (the two syllables are almost equally stressed, just a bit more on the first one). I'm a transplanted Canadian (living in London for 20 years), and pronunciations here sometimes still catch me by surprise :)

And the fact that you know the difference between Tower Bridge and London bridge means you've definitely been here before, ha ha (I once had an out-of-country client contract me to photograph London Bridge. I asked, several times, if he actually meant Tower Bridge, but he insisted it was London Bridge. He actually meant Tower Bridge, lucky for him I quadruple-checked).
 

chasg

Member
Might struggle with the weight aspect on the Wayfarer - the 7 model is 135Kg max load which only gives 15Kg cargo capacity.

Cube Touring or Kathmandu have 140Kg max load, again not so great carrying capacity with a 120Kg rider

Haibike Sduro Trekking 4.0 also limited to 130Kg

A Cube Cargo Sport Hybrid would give you plenty of load capacity (120Kg rider + 100Kg cargo) but somewhat out of budget https://www.cube.eu/uk/2021/e-bikes...argo-hybrid/cube-cargo-hybrid-sport-bluenred/

This Kona UTE might be worth a look / more research ref weight carrying... about on budget https://www.pureelectric.com/collec...ts/kona-electric-ute-electric-cargo-bike-2019 At least this one has a powerful mid drive and decent battery.

Around budget are the Babboe bikes... https://www.babboe.co.uk/cargo-bikes/filter/elektrisch--yes

the Pro Trike looks a possibility with its lockable front box and 80Kg cargo, but the seat limit is 100Kg https://www.pureelectric.com/collections/cargo-electric-bikes/products/babboe-pro-trike-e-374wh

same issue with the city-e, same 100Kg seat limit.. https://www.pureelectric.com/collec...es/products/babboe-city-e-electric-cargo-bike

It might be worth a discussion with Babboe on your requirements though - something like there Dog-e model may well be able to accept 120Kg rider if the cargo weight is <60Kg for example. They are one of the more cargo focussed brands in the UK.
Wow, thanks so much for the well-researched advice!

Yeah, I was worried that the Wisper Wayfarer 7 would be not up to the towing task, nor any "normal" ebike designed just for riding. I'm realising that I will have to get a cargo bike for what I need (I was avoiding coming to that conclusion, as most models push my budget...a lot).

Sadly, the various cargo models with the cargo going in front of the seat can't work for me, as I need to be able to upend the bike onto its rear tire to move it through my house (and the bike can't be taller than a doorway). The Cube Cargo Hybrid looks really nice, but isn't suitable. Same with the Babboe range (cool bikes though). And trikes are a no-go either, can't get them through the house, and I wouldn't be happy at all on London roads with a bike wider than normal (I've seen many around London, but usually limited to side-roads and sidewalks, not any roads with fast-moving traffic).

The Kona UTE, on the other hand, is looking much better for my needs, thanks for the pointer (yet another bike I'd not come across during my not-so-comprehensive research). I'm partial to the Kona brand, I used to have one a looooong time ago that I really liked. And it was kind of you to look at a dealer local to me, the Kona website lists the same bike for almost £1000 more, ha ha.

Thanks again for the help!
 

chasg

Member
In perusing other bikes at Fully Charged, I noticed that they carry Cube. That is a solid, well made German bike, not quite as robustly built as Riese & MUller but still worth a look. Their Kathmandu model is well equipped ebike with Bosch drive system.

Oh, by the way, belt drive is great but I would not trust the Shimano Alphine geared hub with all the weight you are dealing with. The geared hub that would be best suited is a Rohloff but those add about 1,500 pounds to the cost of a bike.

The advantage of a classic derailleur and chain is that parts are readily available everywhere as are bike mechanics who can fix it for you quickly.


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Apologies, Alaskan, for missing your post and not replying earlier.

Cube at least is a brand I've come across! They seem to have a good rep.

Hugely helpful is your comment on Shimano Alphine geared hubs not being up for the weight I want to transport. The used bike I mentioned many replies ago (KTM Macina Gran 8) has that particular geared hub. I'm afraid that I had assumed that "belt drive = robust drive train", so thanks for that. Looks like I won't be going for that used bike after all (too bad, it's really nice!). I can replace chain-based drivetrains myself, I was just looking forward to not having to do as much maintenance, ha ha.
 

percymon

Active Member
I've only had my Giant Fastroad E EX Pro a few weeks, but its a robust bike and plenty of power - i can't find specs for the max load but i suspect you may be OK provided you use the trailer. I'm just under 110Kg and it doesnt have any issues with me on board. I could be wrong but i thought i'd seen a load figure of 160Kg for the bike; i could be wrong though as i looked at lots of options ! The Babboe bikes are pretty cool, but i suspect they could be hard work on steeper inclines.
 

chasg

Member
I've only had my Giant Fastroad E EX Pro a few weeks, but its a robust bike and plenty of power - i can't find specs for the max load but i suspect you may be OK provided you use the trailer. I'm just under 110Kg and it doesnt have any issues with me on board. I could be wrong but i thought i'd seen a load figure of 160Kg for the bike; i could be wrong though as i looked at lots of options ! The Babboe bikes are pretty cool, but i suspect they could be hard work on steeper inclines.
Thanks for that recommendation, I really appreciate it.

That bike has 80Nm of torque, nice! I can't find the load figure you mention, but it sounds reasonable.

As for the Babboes, they are really nice, but the wrong shape for me, as I wouldn't be able to get one through my house for safe-keeping (London is a bike-theft hotspot: both my neighbours to the left and right of us have had bikes stolen when they were locked up in front of their houses with hefty locks).

Thanks again!
 

percymon

Active Member
From Giants warranty info..

''The maximum permissible total weight (bike, rider and luggage) for our E-bikes is 156Kg (344lbs).'' The bike weights in ca 22Kg, and the rear pannier rack is rated the same.

They do accept third party trailers may be used, but must be connected in such a way that the bike itself isn't modified..

''Bicycle trailers & trailer bicycles Please be aware that the use of a (third party) bicycle trailer or trailer bicycle will cause extra load stress and increased wear on the e-bike’s electric and/or mechanical parts. Since there are different types of trailer attachments available (depending on brand/model/etc.) it is not possible to list each combination and predict the outcome for each usage scenario. Always follow the trailer manufacturer’s instructions for installation, usage and safety. Never modify any original parts of the e-bike to accommodate a (third party) trailer. Never exceed the total permissible load weight of the e-bike as stated elsewhere in this user manual.''

Grrr - i paid RRP at the Bristol Giant store at the start of the month - at 6' tall and 32" inside leg thr ML frame size suits me well. You're a bit taller than me so would suggest the large frame.

The Fastroad is probably not quite going to be enough for you with the proposed cargo loads - it could probably do it, but if you did have warranty issues Giant might get a bit awkward


 
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chasg

Member
From Giants warranty info..

''The maximum permissible total weight (bike, rider and luggage) for our E-bikes is 156Kg (344lbs).'' The bike weights in ca 22Kg, and the rear pannier rack is rated the same.

They do accept third party trailers may be used, but must be connected in such a way that the bike itself isn't modified..

''Bicycle trailers & trailer bicycles Please be aware that the use of a (third party) bicycle trailer or trailer bicycle will cause extra load stress and increased wear on the e-bike’s electric and/or mechanical parts. Since there are different types of trailer attachments available (depending on brand/model/etc.) it is not possible to list each combination and predict the outcome for each usage scenario. Always follow the trailer manufacturer’s instructions for installation, usage and safety. Never modify any original parts of the e-bike to accommodate a (third party) trailer. Never exceed the total permissible load weight of the e-bike as stated elsewhere in this user manual.''

Grrr - i paid RRP at the Bristol Giant store at the start of the month - at 6' tall and 32" inside leg thr ML frame size suits me well. You're a bit taller than me so would suggest the large frame.

The Fastroad is probably not quite going to be enough for you with the proposed cargo loads - it could probably do it, but if you did have warranty issues Giant might get a bit awkward


All good info, really helpful, thanks!

My trailer slightly modifies the bikes it attaches to (rear axle replacement), but not in any non-reversible way, happily.

I think this bike would be just on the edge of what I need, so I may give it a miss (but that amount of torque is really nice).
 

percymon

Active Member
I wondered about a riese & muller model , used; but from what I can see even their heavy duty upgrade for their touring bikes takes them to total max weight of 160Kg
 

percymon

Active Member
That Kona Ute looks a good option, although no-one seems to know the weight limits. Only issue is that the electric version is CONSIDERABLY more than the non e version. You could convert the non e with a swytch kit or a Bafang based system for a lot less
 

chasg

Member
That Kona Ute looks a good option, although no-one seems to know the weight limits. Only issue is that the electric version is CONSIDERABLY more than the non e version. You could convert the non e with a swytch kit or a Bafang based system for a lot less
I was actually thinking about this (great minds, and all that :)
 

indianajo

Well-Known Member
My Yubabikes bodaboda has a silk screen label that says 110 kg cargo, 20 kb behind the back wheel. They won't tell you online. That is the frame for small people left, the step over frame might be more. I had it loaded to 240 lb one time with groceries, and I'm 160, so I got home with 400 lb gross. No big hills from grocery store though. The yokes are big enough for 2.3" tires, but the fenders & struts are not. That would only help if those tires are rated to 65 psi like the 2.1" tires I now use. Actual fat tires are 40 lb max I hear, and I bought a 45 psi rated tire from the LBS by mistake once. Cut it up & threw it away, I kept hitting the rim even coming home with no cargo, only tools.
The electric bodaboda now is 9 speed instead of 8 speed chain of my non-electric 2018 model, that would surely last less miles than I got. 11 speed chains, the pedal pushers get about 1000 miles out of them they said on roadbikereview.com
The ultimate heavy cargo bike is a stretch Surlybike but those are steel frame. I would have trouble walking it on back wheel into the house, but you are a big guy.
 

chasg

Member
My Yubabikes bodaboda has a silk screen label that says 110 kg cargo, 20 kb behind the back wheel. They won't tell you online. That is the frame for small people left, the step over frame might be more. I had it loaded to 240 lb one time with groceries, and I'm 160, so I got home with 400 lb gross. No big hills from grocery store though. The yokes are big enough for 2.3" tires, but the fenders & struts are not. That would only help if those tires are rated to 65 psi like the 2.1" tires I now use. Actual fat tires are 40 lb max I hear, and I bought a 45 psi rated tire from the LBS by mistake once. Cut it up & threw it away, I kept hitting the rim even coming home with no cargo, only tools.
The electric bodaboda now is 9 speed instead of 8 speed chain of my non-electric 2018 model, that would surely last less miles than I got. 11 speed chains, the pedal pushers get about 1000 miles out of them they said on roadbikereview.com
Hey, thanks for the info!

I just had a look at the bike, and those pannier/foot supports on either side of the back wheel would prevent me from using my trailer, unfortunately.

All the info you've given on weights, tires, and what you've managed to load (400lbs, wow!) is really useful, I'll have to keep all that in mind for whatever bike I end up with (but at least I won't be carrying all the weight on the bike, the trailer will take at least some of it).

Thanks again, I really appreciate it.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Great to hear that, Richard! (What headlight is it?!)
Oops. I had two EBR tabs open and posted to the wrong one. Any way, the head light is the Supernova M99 Pro e-45. It is a monster of a light. The dual light you see is the automatic daytime mode with two groups of LEDs. The low beam is 1000 lumens and the high beam is 1,600. It requires 24-60 volts and does consume significant wattage. I have it on my Delite Mountain which has dual batteries. It has to be wired directly to the battery to motor wiring. Here are the specs on it.

Low beam1100 lm, 310 lx
Wattage low beam16 W
High beam1600 lm, 380 lx
Wattage high beam/td>27 W
Daytime running light32 Power LEDs
Wattage4.5 W
Input voltage24 V – 60 V DC (75 V max.)
CommunicationCAN, CANopen
Signal processingHigh beam, horn, brake
ApprovalsL-class e.g. L1e
Illuminant9 automotive LEDs
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Oops. I had two EBR tabs open and posted to the wrong one. Any way, the head light is the Supernova M99 Pro e-45. It is a monster of a light. The dual light you see is the automatic daytime mode with two groups of LEDs. The low beam is 1000 lumens and the high beam is 1,600. It requires 24-60 volts and does consume significant wattage. I have it on my Delite Mountain which has dual batteries. It has to be wired directly to the battery to motor wiring. Here are the specs on it.

Low beam1100 lm, 310 lx
Wattage low beam16 W
High beam1600 lm, 380 lx
Wattage high beam/td>27 W
Daytime running light32 Power LEDs
Wattage4.5 W
Input voltage24 V – 60 V DC (75 V max.)
CommunicationCAN, CANopen
Signal processingHigh beam, horn, brake
ApprovalsL-class e.g. L1e
Illuminant9 automotive LEDs
Richard, I knew I recognised that lamp....

Supernova M99 Pro.jpg

Courtesy Specialized Bicycle Components, stock item on EU Vado 6.0 ;)

Sorry @chasg for posting in the wrong thread!