Newbie looking for the truth

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
This one is a 2021. 16.05Kg, 80Km, 60/40 weight distribution to the rear for traction and handling up front. Center of gravity low, 8mm above the hub in the rear and 9mm above the hub in the front. Check out the messy wire nest at the HB and downtube. If you are interested in seeing some look at PedalUma.com some time. This one weighs 35.38 lbs and goes up to 50 miles on a charge with 80Nm of torque.
 

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harryS

Well-Known Member
Thanks to ADA regulations, curbs in my area have ramps for the handicapped. On the other hand, being within civilization means it's urban riding. I never learned to hop the rear wheels as a kid. Not going to learn now.

Wow, that Stromer sure looks like a porker.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Thanks to ADA regulations, curbs in my area have ramps for the handicapped. On the other hand, being within civilization means it's urban riding. I never learned to hop the rear wheels as a kid. Not going to learn now.

Wow, that Stromer sure looks like a porker.
When he started his group ride the display on the Stromer showed an estimated range of 250 miles. With 20Mph headwinds it was dead by 20 miles. The horn would honk when he shifted gears. He has run the bike dry too many times and now has damaged cells. It is a clunker. I predict It will sit at the dealer for 90-days then they will charge him $1,200 for the privilege. I only slow charged it and reset the torque sensor to get him in a position to even take it to the dealer.
 

john peck

Well-Known Member
The Hilltopper 36v kit is relatively simple to install provided you start with a compatible fork with open vertical dropouts. You would need to use the throttle anytime you want motor assist because it does not have a PAS pedal assist sensor. The added weight on the hub of your front wheel will make steering a little heavier. The battery is light and together the motor + battery add I think they say 13lb to the weight of your pedal bicycle.
The best ´hill topper´ locations don´t have hills.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
pedaluma what motor are you using on your bikes?
Vincent,
Four-years ago I started with a BBS01. Progressed to the 02s and HDs. All the time adding more stuff. The builds had nests of wires and were heavy. Somewhere in the BBS02 era I stared doing some 750W TSDZ2s. Then I started removing parts from them and they got lean and mean, better and better, refined. Now I like 36V 350Watts with no levers, no throttle and the speed sensor removed. Man these are sweet. I set the wheel diameter at 10cm on a 29er and the upper limit at 45Km - but without a speed sensor it does not know - it just goes. The expensive store bikes have to draft these bikes to try to make their batteries last. These bike out climb them here with the Northern Coastal hills of California and will out last them with small lightweight batteries. Next week a $7500 Riese and Muller with a hub motor will join us on a group ride. It has every feature such as dual batteries, Gates belt-drive and brake lights, full suspension. One of my 35 pounder stripped conversions will blow it away and run it into the ashes. But we are kind on rides and non-competitive. Another expensive bike will be drafting.
 

vincent

Well-Known Member
Very interesting, will be cool to watch your builds etc with these motors

thought some others were having issues with electronics or something on this motor, has that not been your experience at all? Or have you done something to modify that and eliminate those problems?
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
Vincent,
Four-years ago I started with a BBS01. Progressed to the 02s and HDs. All the time adding more stuff. The builds had nests of wires and were heavy. Somewhere in the BBS02 era I stared doing some 750W TSDZ2s. Then I started removing parts from them and they got lean and mean, better and better, refined. Now I like 36V 350Watts with no levers, no throttle and the speed sensor removed. Man these are sweet. I set the wheel diameter at 10cm on a 29er and the upper limit at 45Km - but without a speed sensor it does not know - it just goes. The expensive store bikes have to draft these bikes to try to make their batteries last. These bike out climb them here with the Northern Coastal hills of California and will out last them with small lightweight batteries. Next week a $7500 Riese and Muller with a hub motor will join us on a group ride. It has every feature such as dual batteries, Gates belt-drive and brake lights, full suspension. One of my 35 pounder stripped conversions will blow it away and run it into the ashes. But we are kind on rides and non-competitive. Another expensive bike will be drafting.
Is the TSDZ2 that good these days?

Im wondering if the TSDZ2 has been updated since I had one in late 2019. I put opensource software on it(and modified the software myself), a brass gear and ran it at 52V and 750 watts. It was a fun project but would overheat when pushed anything above about 25mph(rolling 4-6% hills) which usually required 500+watts to maintain. After 1k of use, there was so much BB bearing slop that I abandoned it and bought an iZIP mode E3 (Brose speed pedelec) which is just as fast over the same course/conditions and doesnt overheat.

Can a 36V 350W TSDZ2 maintain 45km these days? If so, what has changed since 2019? Where can I buy one of these 'miracle motors'?
 
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Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Let me start by saying I have never built a ebike conversion. I have the skills to do so. I have the tools and a great workstand all set up in a nice home bike shop in our basement. I am retired and have the time and I love to work on bikes. I like well integrated, well finished clean looking equipment. I also like the ride experience of a well designed and built mid drive with torque sensor. As I understand it, Bafang makes a decent mid drive conversion motor with a torque sensor as an option. I live in Bellingham Washington, a hilly town with hills to rival San Francisco or Seattle. All my buddies with hub motors regularly get stalled half way up some of them and have to walk their heavy bikes up hill the rest of the way while things cool off.

All this goes to my recommendations, if you want to build a conversion ebike, you should
  1. Make sure you have the needed tools and space to do the work
  2. Make sure you have the time to start and complete the project.
  3. Get used to watching lots of how to videos on Youtube, if you are not already.
  4. Keep asking lots of questions here of the DIY community here and elsewhere.
  5. Learn how to filter answers from people who aren't addressing your questions but rather trying to get someone else to do what they did for self validation.
  6. Based on where you live go with a mid drive motor with torque sensor.
  7. Try to mount your battery inside the frame's triangle, either on the downtube or the seat tube
  8. Keep the center of gravity low and centered between the wheels.
  9. Post a some pictures of your new pride and joy when you are done.
  10. Share with us what you learned in the process. Pay forward what you learn here by sharing lessons learned.
  11. Let us know how things are going with the new bike after a month or two of riding...is it performing as expected? Any problems, hiccups, gremlins or snafus?
  12. Make sure you are having fun in the shop and on the road.

    20201121_164025.jpg
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Linklemming,
Alsakan has a nice set up and stable!
I did successfully kill one. It had a 50-T chainring to an 8-Speed Nexus with 16-T and I would ride it too hard and fast. It was also from a second tier supplier.
The BB needs to be milled on most aluminum bikes. Almost every bike requires shims so the motor is super tight through the bottom bracket. Otherwise there will quickly develop play. Spacers need to be exactly correct, custom. 750W with a throttle and speed sensors are not that great. Milk toast at best. I have purchased motors from second tier suppliers that were not quite right, making me think that second tier QC motors are not removed from the market but sent to discount sellers or that there are copies on the market like buying Gucci sunglasses on Albia. These ones have crappy bearings, controllers... It is almost like all the failed QC components were salvaged from the heap and assembled together off campus.
I modify the motor mounts and I use stronger and often longer bolts. Someone please unplug your speed sensor and throttle to fact check me on the enhancement to ride feel. I also ride an eBike like a bike. I ride it like a horse that I love. I use all the gears and tuck in down hills. I stand off the saddle and on ride on the pedals in the steep places for final 60 meters to a crest in low gear. It assists me. I take care of the bike and am not going to ride it until it is dead and falls over - you wouldn't do that to a horse. Some people will ride an eBike like an electric motorcycle, with a throttle, or not shifting and using the highest power level, then they can blame the bike when it dies. I play an eBike like a musical instrument with some subtly. It makes an interactive game out of the riding experience to be fully engaged.
 

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Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Linklemming,
Alsakan has a nice set up and stable!
I did successfully kill one. It had a 50-T chainring to an 8-Speed Nexus with 16-T and I would ride it too hard and fast. It was also from a second tier supplier.
The BB needs to be milled on most aluminum bikes. Almost every bike requires shims so the motor is super tight through the bottom bracket. Otherwise there will quickly develop play. Spacers need to be exactly correct, custom. 750W with a throttle and speed sensors are not that great. Milk toast at best. I have purchased motors from second tier suppliers that were not quite right, making me think that second tier QC motors are not removed from the market but sent to discount sellers or that there are copies on the market like buying Gucci sunglasses on Albia. These ones have crappy bearings, controllers... It is almost like all the failed QC components were salvaged from the heap and assembled together off campus.
I modify the motor mounts and I use stronger and often longer bolts. Someone please unplug your speed sensor and throttle to fact check me on the enhancement to ride feel. I also ride an eBike like a bike. I ride it like a horse that I love. I use all the gears and tuck in down hills. I stand off the saddle and on ride on the pedals in the steep places for final 60 meters to a crest in low gear. It assists me. I take care of the bike and am not going to ride it until it is dead and falls over - you wouldn't do that to a horse. Some people will ride an eBike like an electric motorcycle, with a throttle, or not shifting and using the highest power level, then they can blame the bike when it dies. I play an eBike like a musical instrument with some subtly. It makes an interactive game out of the riding experience to be fully engaged.
A most excellent and inciteful post, sir. And, indeed, you do have some formidable hills throughout Marin County.
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
Linklemming,
Alsakan has a nice set up and stable!
I did successfully kill one. It had a 50-T chainring to an 8-Speed Nexus with 16-T and I would ride it too hard and fast. It was also from a second tier supplier.
The BB needs to be milled on most aluminum bikes. Almost every bike requires shims so the motor is super tight through the bottom bracket. Otherwise there will quickly develop play. Spacers need to be exactly correct, custom. 750W with a throttle and speed sensors are not that great. Milk toast at best. I have purchased motors from second tier suppliers that were not quite right, making me think that second tier QC motors are not removed from the market but sent to discount sellers or that there are copies on the market like buying Gucci sunglasses on Albia. These ones have crappy bearings, controllers... It is almost like all the failed QC components were salvaged from the heap and assembled together off campus.
I modify the motor mounts and I use stronger and often longer bolts. Someone please unplug your speed sensor and throttle to fact check me on the enhancement to ride feel. I also ride an eBike like a bike. I ride it like a horse that I love. I use all the gears and tuck in down hills. I stand off the saddle and on ride on the pedals in the steep places for final 60 meters to a crest in low gear. It assists me. I take care of the bike and am not going to ride it until it is dead and falls over - you wouldn't do that to a horse. Some people will ride an eBike like an electric motorcycle, with a throttle, or not shifting and using the highest power level, then they can blame the bike when it dies. I play an eBike like a musical instrument with some subtly. It makes an interactive game out of the riding experience to be fully engaged.
I did buy TSDZ2 from a reputable supplier (eco-cycle). Is there a better supplier?

My TSDZ22 did have the upgraded helical spur gear.

I am also VERY meticulous in builds and mechanically competent and have been built most of my own bikes from the frameset for over 20 years.

My TSDZ2 did need a small BB spacer for chainstay clearance of around 1mm. It took me a few weeks to get my kit all buttoned up as I am very anal and meticulous in ordering or fabricating parts and wiring. The bike I put it on I have ridden for over 25 years and did have the BB faced about 10 years ago and has never had abnormal BB wear (last BB I bought in 2006 is still on the bike)

Im interested what spacer you think I seem to not be using and how/why they would cause bearing wear which has been common amongst many owners on endless-sphere and several on this forum? Isnt the BB on the TSDz2 self contained BB alignmentwise? How would 'canting' the mounting cause abnormal bearing wear with this self contained design? If thats the case wouldnt things like higher offset cranks and even less than perfect foot placement on the pedals cause issues which has never occurred on any other bike I have owned?

Im a life long cyclist and ride with the same considerations you do (most likely even more). Are you asserting that the problems I had were due to me abusing the bike? Is that the only possible reason someone might have a different TSDZ2 experience than you? If I was truly abusing my horse, wouldnt all my other 4 ebikes have similar issues...especially considering that two of these bikes are using Brose motors(11k miles combined) which many seem to think are the most unreliable around?

How would having a throttle on the bike make it worse? Perhaps you mean using a throttle? FWIW, I never installed a throttle on my TSDZ2. I also never used the brake cutouts.

I set the max speed so high via the open source software that it was not limited. I also modified the software in an attempt to make the torque sensor more responsive. In the end, the lag by the hardware low pass on the torque sensor limited what I could do in software. I also lost the speed sensor at a point and rode it like that for over a month as I use a garmin GPS speedometer and noticed no difference and left the speed sensor off till I took everything off the bike.

I have no doubt that a 350W 36V TSDZ2 would be a sweet ride for many folks. I question it being a 'factory ebike killer'

Im glad the TSDZ2 works for you. I really liked the design(much more secure mouting than BBSxx and torque sensor), especially with the opensource software. Many people love them but many people like me have problems (welll documented on endless sphere).

I considered buying another TSDZ2 at a point to have a backup, just like casinho on endless-sphere (the opensource author) does but got a good deal on my iZip Moda e3 speed pedelec.

I have also done a BBS02 back in 2018 (hated the cadence sensing, even with modded parameters) and most recently a GMAC 10t motor with torque sensor, phaserunner and CA3

I have no doubts a 36V 350W tsdz2 would be a good setup for many people but I question the claims of it being a 'factory ebike killer'
 
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PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I did buy TSDZ2 from a reputable supplier (eco-cycle). Is there a better supplier?

My TSDZ22 did have the upgraded helical spur gear.

I am also VERY meticulous in builds and mechanically competent and have been built most of my own bikes from the frameset for over 20 years.

My TSDZ2 did need a small BB spacer for chainstay clearance of around 1mm. It took me a few weeks to get my kit all buttoned up as I am very anal and meticulous in ordering or fabricating parts and wiring. The bike I put it on I have ridden for over 25 years and did have the BB faced about 10 years ago and has never had abnormal BB wear (last BB I bought in 2006 is still on the bike)

Im interested what spacer you think I seem to not be using and how/why they would cause bearing wear which has been common amongst many owners on endless-sphere and several on this forum? Isnt the BB on the TSDz2 self contained BB alignmentwise? How would 'canting' the mounting cause abnormal bearing wear with this self contained design? If thats the case wouldnt things like higher offset cranks and even less than perfect foot placement on the pedals cause issues which has never occurred on any other bike I have owned?

Im a life long cyclist and ride with the same considerations you do (most likely even more). Are you asserting that the problems I had were due to me abusing the bike? Is that the only possible reason someone might have a different TSDZ2 experience than you? If I was truly abusing my horse, wouldnt all my other 4 ebikes have similar issues...especially considering that two of these bikes are using Brose motors(11k miles combined) which many seem to think are the most unreliable around?

How would having a throttle on the bike make it worse? Perhaps you mean using a throttle? FWIW, I never installed a throttle on my TSDZ2. I also never used the brake cutouts.

I set the max speed so high via the open source software that it was not limited. I also modified the software in an attempt to make the torque sensor more responsive. In the end, the lag by the hardware low pass on the torque sensor limited what I could do in software. I also lost the speed sensor at a point and rode it like that for over a month as I use a garmin GPS speedometer and noticed no difference and left the speed sensor off till I took everything off the bike.

I have no doubt that a 350W 36V TSDZ2 would be a sweet ride for many folks. I question it being a 'factory ebike killer'

Im glad the TSDZ2 works for you. I really liked the design(much more secure mouting than BBSxx and torque sensor), especially with the opensource software. Many people love them but many people like me have problems (welll documented on endless sphere).

I considered buying another TSDZ2 at a point to have a backup, just like casinho on endless-sphere (the opensource author) does but got a good deal on my iZip Moda e3 speed pedelec.

I have also done a BBS02 back in 2018 (hated the cadence sensing, even with modded parameters) and most recently a GMAC 10t motor with torque sensor, phaserunner and CA3

I have no doubts a 36V 350W tsdz2 would be a good setup for many people but I question the claims of it being a 'factory ebike killer'
Thoughtful and very well put. Thank you. I was addressing your questions to the general membership and not saying that you as a person are less than awesome and avid. The LCD-5 is very popular and the eight wire comes with European mode as default in my experience, sometimes it is locked that way and will not allow the user to put it into Japan mode. I do not know if this is hardware related. Japan mode is better. I have switched to using the little six-wire LCD-6 and am much happier.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I haven’t tried the new 36v version but it should be 50% more powerful than the 24v hilltopper kit I tried 5 years ago and returned after a week before I went with BBS01.
I have a RONDO t-shirt. It says Less Talking More Riding. Riding the bikes side by side will tell more than any talk.
 

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John from Connecticut

Well-Known Member
It will be a little heavier when you pick it up. It might slip on loose stuff going uphill, but then again, iy is a Hilltopper and not very powerful. A steel fork is best for front motors. BE advised that strong motors will rip a alloy fork apart.

Wow. The Leeds site is sneaky. It's not clear that you have tp buy the electronics separately.

This is not a bad kit. I have one, Only three pedal assist levels. They sell it in 26".

Also in rear driver. I think that's better for safety.

You can run it on 36V batteries. I bought an ebikeling kkit in 2015 and the wheel has never needed to come off the bike. No flats. No motor issues. Just a beater bike that won't attract chicks and was under $500. Probably won't climb big hills.

View attachment 79937
Wow ! What a great l looking bike.
 

legsofbeer

Active Member
I'd need to lift it in and out of my apartment, which is first floor, but there are a few steps up to it. I think that would get old real quick if I had a 70 pound bike!
I do have a 69lb bike (rear hub drive) and have had to get it up the stairs when the elevator went out. Most rear hub drives come with a walk mode, where the controller applies about enough juice to get you moving at 6mph on the level if you were riding it. Plenty to push the bike up the stairs with you on your feet holding it steady and trying to keep up. Your lower back and upper legs will get a bit of a workout doing this.