NY Times 11/17/2021 - From Electric Bikes to ‘Tree Equity,’ Biden’s Social Policy Bill Funds Niche Items

TheRaja

New Member
Region
USA
I do not believe that the ebike tax credit provision in the BBB Act passed by the House (HR5376) is retroactive to 2018.
Re: Effective date
"The amendments made by this section shall apply to property placed in service after the date of the enactment of this Act, in taxable years ending after such date."
Nothing is law until Senate and House agree on a bill and POTUS signs the bill.
 

Gordon71

Well-Known Member
I do not believe that the ebike tax credit provision in the BBB Act passed by the House (HR5376) is retroactive to 2018.
Re: Effective date
"The amendments made by this section shall apply to property placed in service after the date of the enactment of this Act, in taxable years ending after such date."
Nothing is law until Senate and House agree on a bill and POTUS signs the bill.
That would make more sense. It is an incentive to get people to buy an Ebike. We've already bought one.
 

rbeckert

New Member
Region
USA
Representative Jimmy Panetta, Democrat of California and another proponent of electric bike subsidies, said the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee drafted its section of the bill, provision by provision, and no one objected to the e-bike measure, which would cover 30 percent of the cost, up to $900, to, as he put it, “put butts on bikes.”

“Once you get out there, once you start talking about benefits and once you talk to people who have tried e-bikes, they accept it and they want it,” he said. Getting the money into the bill “was easier than I expected,” he added.

Link to article. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/us/politics/biden-build-back-better-act.html
Link to the bill as it was sent to the Senate. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376/text
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
So a social security pensioner or those living at or below the Federal Poverty Line are out in the cold. Poor Americans tend to drive beater cages spewing bunt oil. Once again a bill that benefits those that can put out up to 8K for an eBike.

How about removing all the eBike business damaging tariffs?
 

Art Deco

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
So a social security pensioner or those living at or below the Federal Poverty Line are out in the cold. Poor Americans tend to drive beater cages spewing bunt oil. Once again a bill that benefits those that can put out up to 8K for an eBike.

How about removing all the eBike business damaging tariffs?
How about removing all the fossil fuel subsidies as well ? That would really hurt the working poor.
Energy for transportation is one of those areas where both markets and governments are involved. Expensive new technology (that often still needs infrastructure) vs old and established technology that often needs expensive repairs.
 

TomD

Well-Known Member

Sounds like the latest iteration caps the benefit at $900 (30% of the first $3K) and excludes bikes costing more than $4K. Not sure I understand the rationale. An ebike costing slightly more than $4K would be considered a luxury, but not a $80K electric vehicle? A Turbo Vado SL 4.0 would qualify for full credit but a 5.0 wouldn't qualify for any credit? Guessing lawmakers are like typical consumers and don't understand what ebikes cost. If this passes I suppose one good thing will be incentives for manufacturers to keep ebikes under $4K.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
How about removing all the fossil fuel subsidies as well ? That would really hurt the working poor.
With the current herd mindset, sure. However moving closer to sustainable methodologies and creating real jobs building sustainable infrastructure could…

Oh never mind. I’m to close to a dirt nap to fret, but I’d like everyone’s grandkids to have an enjoyable life. I sure have. But not having to sweat finances really relaxed me. Independently dollar poor but rich in life adventures and friends.
 

Tubbs

Member
Region
USA
City
Las Vegas
I would gladly give up the "Tax Rebate or Credit" to kill the BBB bill which is certainly not better than the capitalist system which has brought more wealth to more people than any socialist system ever has.
 

Art Deco

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
With the current herd mindset, sure. However moving closer to sustainable methodologies and creating real jobs building sustainable infrastructure could…

Oh never mind. I’m to close to a dirt nap to fret, but I’d like everyone’s grandkids to have an enjoyable life. I sure have. But not having to sweat finances really relaxed me. Independently dollar poor but rich in life adventures and friends.
The price of gas will have to rise to world levels soon enough, and some kind of means tested financial aid for fuel costs can be extended to the poor (similar to the heating oil benefit).
But the price we pay for fuel in the USA is too low to reflect the real costs of extraction as we drill ever deeper to get ever smaller deposits. Sorry.
 

Tubbs

Member
Region
USA
City
Las Vegas
The price of gas will have to rise to world levels soon enough, and some kind of means tested financial aid for fuel costs can be extended to the poor (similar to the heating oil benefit).
But the price we pay for fuel in the USA is too low to reflect the real costs of extraction as we drill ever deeper to get ever smaller deposits. Sorry.
Are you saying the goverment is subsidizing the extraction of oil in the USA? I always thought it was better extraction methods made for the lower costs. Well until we got the dummy from Delaware. As far as smaller deposits thanks to Shale oil we have more reserves than Russia and Saudi Arabia. I remember we were supposed to have hit "peak" oil in the mid 70's. I am all for getting off of fossil fuels when we have a better alternative but currently we don't.
 

VoltMan99

Well-Known Member
Region
Asia
City
Tokyo
“Tree Equity”? I guess they could then promote more of them to “branch manager”. 🤣
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
I am all for getting off of fossil fuels when we have a better alternative but currently we don't.
Yeah, the USA, one of most innovative countries in the world can’t manage.
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VoltMan99

Well-Known Member
Region
Asia
City
Tokyo
A $900 rebate to fund the inequitableds a cheap e-bike made in China from Walmart while Uncle Joe’s Energy Secretary storms around in an SUV tour of the country?:

 

Kayakguy

Active Member
Are you saying the goverment is subsidizing the extraction of oil in the USA? I always thought it was better extraction methods made for the lower costs. Well until we got the dummy from Delaware. As far as smaller deposits thanks to Shale oil we have more reserves than Russia and Saudi Arabia. I remember we were supposed to have hit "peak" oil in the mid 70's. I am all for getting off of fossil fuels when we have a better alternative but currently we don't.
Studies have shown that shale oil costs more (in terms of energy expended) than the benefit provided in terms of energy gained. And the environmental deterioration of the area has been profound. The US government has always subsidized the petroleum industry, via tax breaks such as the depletion allowance. Most of our adventures in the middle east have been competitive struggles (against rival nations) to ensure continuing petroleum availability. How costly have those wars propping up friendly dictators, and bribes to corrupt officials been? It's all a very dark story that we hear little about. "3 Days of the Condor" is a 70's movie that touches on this international meddling. Fiction, to be sure, but plausible anyhow.

Buy gas at a Canadian station if you want to get a clearer idea of how much we should be paying for fuel
 

VoltMan99

Well-Known Member
Region
Asia
City
Tokyo
Studies have shown that shale oil costs more (in terms of energy expended) than the benefit provided in terms of energy gained. And the environmental deterioration of the area has been profound. The US government has always subsidized the petroleum industry, via tax breaks such as the depletion allowance. Most of our adventures in the middle east have been competitive struggles (against rival nations) to ensure continuing petroleum availability. How costly have those wars propping up friendly dictators, and bribes to corrupt officials been? It's all a very dark story that we hear little about. "3 Days of the Condor" is a 70's movie that touches on this international meddling. Fiction, to be sure, but plausible anyhow.

Buy gas at a Canadian station if you want to get a clearer idea of how much we should be paying for fuel
Sorry but someone sold you the London Bridge if you believe 🇺🇸 American oil production is inefficient and dwindling.
Actually it’s quite the opposite. you should visit eia.gov to get the real story.


An example: the Permian basin still comfortably has 8 billion barrels of reserves remaining. To give this some perspective we’ve consumed 33.4 billion from the Permian in the last 100 years. And there’s a lot more oil reserves besides that. Massive amounts beneath Los Angeles in fact!

Source: https://www.eia.gov/maps/pdf/Wolfca...e,the United States and the world (EIA, 2018).

By 2022 🇺🇸 America will become the worlds largest exporter of liquefied natural gas (LNG).

The reason Canadians pay more for gas is simply because they are Canadians. They even pay more for maple syrup 🤣.
 

Kayakguy

Active Member
Sorry but someone sold you the London Bridge if you believe 🇺🇸 American oil production is inefficient and dwindling.
Actually it’s quite the opposite. you should visit eia.gov to get the real story.


An example: the Permian basin still comfortably has 8 billion barrels of reserves remaining. To give this some perspective we’ve consumed 33.4 billion from the Permian in the last 100 years. And there’s a lot more oil reserves besides that. Massive amounts beneath Los Angeles in fact!

Source: https://www.eia.gov/maps/pdf/Wolfcamp_BoneSpring_EIA_Report_July2019.pdf#:~:text=2017, EIA estimates remaining proven reserves in the,the United States and the world (EIA, 2018).

By 2022 🇺🇸 America will become the worlds largest exporter of liquefied natural gas (LNG).

The reason Canadians pay more for gas is simply because they are Canadians. They even pay more for maple syrup 🤣.
Apparently you didn't read my post very carefully. I never said US oil production is inefficient and dwindling. My point was that we don't pay per gallon what that gallon of gas costs to produce (when you include foreign wars, bribery, subsidies, environmental damage, etc.). But I'll add a point: The costs of retrieval go up steadily over time. Example: the Gulf of Mexico B&P blowout of a few years ago. Wells have to be drilled deeper and deeper; areas such as the arctic are much more challenging to work in safely and economically, and drilling in the seabed is highly fraught. Fracking, of course, has provided a big influx of new oil and gas, but that has environmental costs that nobody seems to care about--except the people directly affected by that pollution.

And burning of fossil fuels has a cost as well, such as global warming and sea level rise. But perhaps you don't believe in that, so no problem, eh?
 

VoltMan99

Well-Known Member
Region
Asia
City
Tokyo
Apparently you didn't read my post very carefully. I never said US oil production is inefficient and dwindling. My point was that we don't pay per gallon what that gallon of gas costs to produce (when you include foreign wars, bribery, subsidies, environmental damage, etc.). But I'll add a point: The costs of retrieval go up steadily over time. Example: the Gulf of Mexico B&P blowout of a few years ago. Wells have to be drilled deeper and deeper; areas such as the arctic are much more challenging to work in safely and economically, and drilling in the seabed is highly fraught. Fracking, of course, has provided a big influx of new oil and gas, but that has environmental costs that nobody seems to care about--except the people directly affected by that pollution.

And burning of fossil fuels has a cost as well, such as global warming and sea level rise. But perhaps you don't believe in that, so no problem, eh?
Your previous post riddled with fallacy and conspiracies:

“Studies have shown that shale oil costs more (in terms of energy expended) than the benefit provided in terms of energy gained. And the environmental deterioration of the area has been profound. The US government has always subsidized the petroleum industry, via tax breaks such as the depletion allowance. Most of our adventures in the middle east have been competitive struggles (against rival nations) to ensure continuing petroleum availability.”

Oil extraction and production has never been cheaper or previously more efficient. Read eia.gov data. The reason gasoline prices are high is because of our exports to global markets (at a huge profit) and as well lack of distribution infrastructure for finished product (pipelines and refineries).

I’m okay with high prices. Ride a bus if you can’t afford it. I drive a diesel anyways- much cheaper!