Nyon MY21 - Initial Thoughts

smitty

Active Member
There do seem to be quite a few EBR members here who have spare ebikes...
There do seem to be quite a few EBR members here who have spare ebikes...
I sleep pretty well. And I like to remove my computer an bring it inside when the weather gets colder, so I have never put the screw in to keep it in permanently. I only have one R & M bike, so my concern if accidentally dropping it or losing it for some reason, $314 doesn’t sound much against a12K bike, but I’m 84 and can certainly afford it…
 

Vim Fuego

Member
A few days use of my upgraded Nyon'21 (from Intuvia) and i'm really pleased. Routing works really well for me, once I worked out it had an obsession with wanting to go to within a few metres of the programmed start point, and if you didn't do that, it would forever try and re-route you back to the beginning, until you changed "From Origin" to "From Next Waypoint".

Good Stuff
  1. I found mapping and routing to be really very good on the whole, with rides planned and executed without error.
  2. I liked the stats that get uploaded to the app/website, and the sync is seamless. (Google Pixel 5)
  3. The widgets and customisation are really very very good, and extremely well designed, the unit is fast to scroll between screens and easy to read.
  4. I like the change in these colours for riding modes, doesn't matter what screen you are on, you know what mode you are in.
  5. The You/Engine effort stat is particularly good, and I like the website tracking monthly use to encourage me to beat it next month.
Not so good
  1. I had initially some GPS lock-on issues, where a ride had missing data, but it's not occurred again.
  2. An "End Ride" would be nice, rather than waiting for it to decide things are done (still not sure how it decides this).
  3. Charging extra for the lock option is a bit tight, it doesn't appear like it's a deterrent, as there is no visible indicator to a thief.
Things That Would Improve The Product
  1. Media Controls Widgets (Play/Pause/Back/Next), so my phone can stay permanently in my pocket.
  2. Phone Notifications Widget, so my phone can stay permanently in my pocket.
  3. If you buy the Lock IAP, they send you a sticker in the post if you provide the purchase receipt, so a potential thief knows it's not worth it.
 

Kaiede

Member
2. An "End Ride" would be nice, rather than waiting for it to decide things are done (still not sure how it decides this).
3. Charging extra for the lock option is a bit tight, it doesn't appear like it's a deterrent, as there is no visible indicator to a thief.

A ride segment ends when the bike hasn’t moved for a few minutes. It also seems that removing the Nyon from the mount triggers this. The trip data is reset depending on how you’ve configured it.

I have to agree on the charging extra. It’d be more of a deterrent if it was clear that a Bosch drive unit without a control unit meant it was locked. But without it being consistent, there’s not much deterrent factor.
 

Vim Fuego

Member
I would also like to know the routing conditions that led to such a positive conclusion.

Was the routing mainly on ordinary streets or was it dedicated cycle path centric?

Thanks

Peter
UK and the planned route was mainly dedicated cycle paths, but some sensible roads also and some off-road trails
 

peterh_nz

Member
Region
New Zealand
UK and the planned route was mainly dedicated cycle paths, but some sensible roads also and some off-road trails
Thank you.

That's interesting, especially considering my experience. A couple of further questions:

Specifically how did the Nyon 21 routing perform on the spatially separate off road trails (not just along streets with physical separators)?

How long have the dedicated cycle paths and off road trails you used been designated for cycles? In the order of months or a number of years?

I ask because, in my experience, more often than not the Nyon 21/EBC routing ignores the presence of official designated cycle paths and sometimes, when it seems to route along them, it's actually the adjacent motor vehicle lanes it's following.

The version of the OSM map that Nyon21/EBC uses is out of date regarding cycle paths. Other OSM based routing apps I use are based on current or very recent OSM maps and recognise, and give priority to using, cycle paths.

I was suspecting my experience with Nyon 21/EBC is typical for all users and locations, but maybe not.

Peter
 

Moonglow

New Member
Region
New Zealand
I agree. Personally I find this the most serious flaw. There are many times when you want to join a route half way through, or pause the route guidance because you want to detour for a while. Sometime I only need route guidance on the way back along a route. Nyon has a hard time in these situations. I think this is because the software still tries to compute the navigation between waypoints and often there are too few waypoints. Often just the destination waypoint or the start/stop waypoint on a return journey. So when you start navigation somewhere along the route, the software can only see the beginning A and end point B and tries to take you back home to point A because its closer. The software doesn't seem to see the route. This happens on both routes calculated in real time and saved routes that are downloaded. Unfortunately, even if you manually navigate to the route, the route you have downloaded or want to follow may not be the route the bike now wants you to take if the conditions or settings are different. For example, you may have a scenic route that you want to follow, but when you manually join this route and turn on guidance, a new route is generated that may be quickest or shortest, or some other variation, because the routes are computer generated between way points. The fix would be to have the software put an invisible waypoint at every turn along the route, and then when you turn on the guidance, it would navigate to the nearest turn. Bosch seems to have great ideas, but still needs to iron out the details.
Can't this just be addressed with the start from next weighpoint option? I've had the problem you describe, but by changing this setting it did pick up the next weighpoint as I approached it and took us from there.
 

peterh_nz

Member
Region
New Zealand
Can't this just be addressed with the start from next weighpoint option? I've had the problem you describe, but by changing this setting it did pick up the next weighpoint as I approached it and took us from there.
I agree, at least in my experience, when following an imported GPX track I find I need to often use the "Next Waypoint" option. Otherwise Nyon21 goes haywire.

This is especially so if I'm following a circular GPX track. I need to get away from the common start/finish point before initiating following the GPX using "Next Waypoint".

This is not related to my earlier comments (and elsewhere) on the idiosyncratic and lacking Nyon21/EBC routing function.

Peter
 

Vim Fuego

Member
Specifically how did the Nyon 21 routing perform on the spatially separate off road trails (not just along streets with physical separators)?

How long have the dedicated cycle paths and off road trails you used been designated for cycles? In the order of months or a number of years?

I ask because, in my experience, more often than not the Nyon 21/EBC routing ignores the presence of official designated cycle paths and sometimes, when it seems to route along them, it's actually the adjacent motor vehicle lanes it's following.
Nyon performed equally well on all, always using cycle paths in preference when they took me to the same destination. The cycle lanes used are about 10 years old, I've not been on anything really new.

I'm not in a city, but semi-rural UK town, with a good, well established cycle path network.

Have you looked on OSM to see if the data is accurate and updated it, if not?

Does the route plan correctly if planned on komoot?

I noticed when recording tracks on komoot, it offers to snap route to known paths, perhaps gpx import (which I haven't tried, and not really something I want or need to do, when komoot does it all for me). I guess gpx is very absolute, and misses the snapping to known routes step?
 
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fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
I had a weird one I routed to a park and it its in a area with lots of expensive homes and not through roads. I got half way and found the route was through a private road. so I stopped navigation and used Apple Maps to get me to this hill I wanted to climb when got to it I started navigation again and it routed me back to the start. no clue on that. maybe since I don't have rerouting on?
 

peterh_nz

Member
Region
New Zealand
Nyon performed equally well on all, always using cycle paths in preference when they took me to the same destination. The cycle lanes used are about 10 years old, I've not been on anything really new.

I'm not in a city, but semi-rural UK town, with a good, well established cycle path network.

Have you looked on OSM to see if the data is accurate and updated it, if not?

Does the route plan correctly if planned on komoot?

I noticed when recording tracks on komoot, it offers to snap route to known paths, perhaps gpx import (which I haven't tried, and not really something I want or need to do, when komoot does it all for me). I guess gpx is very absolute, and misses the snapping to known routes step?
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, OSM is up to date and correct. The two cycle routing apps I use (OSMAnd and BRouter) are based on OSM and produce accurate GPX files that give priority use to cycle paths if present. (Snapping to roads is turned off.)

It is only by importing the GPX files into Nyon21/EBC that I can reliably use the Nyon for guidance (ie by following the GPX track).

It is the route planning done completely within the the Nyon21/EBC system that is problematic. It often results in illogical cycling routes either ignoring or giving low priority to using cycle paths which are present.

Generally the cycle paths I use are younger than the ten years of your location but they are on OSM so it's not a question of "filtering through the system".

Even where the cycle path is adjacent to motor vehicle lanes in a street, the imported GPX track (from OSMAnd and BRouter) clearly show the cycle path being used.

For example, a direct street route with cycle path into my city's centre clearly shows the Nyon21/EBC route ignores the cycle path (including where it crosses the street) and merely follows the motor vehicle lanes.

I, and others, have described and illustrated the routing problems elsewhere in EBR Bosch forum.

Were hoping your experience would lead to a solution!

Actually, for all other Nyon21 functions (ie non mapping) I give it a definite 10/10. Well designed, informative and functional.

Peter
 
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Vim Fuego

Member
Nyon question on the Lock add-on. I already mentioned, it feels mostly useless, it won't stop your bike being stolen, just gives you a warm fuzzy feeling that you screwed over the thief.

Does it also lock the nyon to the motor, and prevent the nyon being used on other bikes? If someonee were to steal the nyon, would it be equally as useless?
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
Thanks for confirmation Darlinsk and Alaskan! But actually charging the phone is the last thing I care about here. Let me explain. For last 6 month I am in search for perfect camera setup for my bike (I am riding though the NYC a lot, so I want to have recording just in case something happens) - so I am looking for something like car dash cam. My requirements are:
  • descent video quality (so the plates are readable)
  • ability to have "infinity storage" (new videos overwrites old when storage is full)
  • ability to integrate with my bike, so I don't need to think about charging and turning on/off the camera.
While first two criteria are pretty basic and there are lots of options, it is difficult to do something with 3rd option, but with SmartphoneHub I was able to get it working almost like I want. And how, after upgrade I lost that and need to start my research from scratch :(
I am using Drift Ghost XL camera mounted under the front light and it has a special waterproof power connector (using 3.5mm audio jack which screws in the came case one one side and regular USB connector on other). Also, this camera has a "dash cam" mode, when it powers on / start recording when powered on via the cable and stop recording / powers off when power is disconnected. Since SmartphoneHub has a power port, I just made a special cable from the one coming with the camera and one coming with the Hub, so camera is always connected to the hub port. And this was giving me a trouble-free camera setup:
  • camera is powered on from the bike battery - no need to worry about it is dead since I forget to re-charge it
  • camera starts recording after I start the ride (SmartphoneHub powers on the port the app when the phone is connected to the hub and I am in riding mode)
  • camera stops recording after I ended the ride (SmartphoneHub powers off the port the app when the app is closed and phone is discconnected from the hub)
I used it few month in this way and it was working fine. And I was hoping to get similar with Nyon since it has a USB port (my fault I never double check it is suitable for charging, but knowing the even Kiox has it I have zero reasons to not expect much more advanced and expensive display can't do this like basic Purion can't), but my hopes are dead now. My plan now to explore the option to use some power from front/rear light power input (it has 12 volts, so I will need to use car/motocycle usb outlet with built-in convertor), but I am still not sure will it work and if is it enough power there to share between usb port and light itself.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Not sure why you posted the M99 Pro info.

I have the Supernova M99 Pro on my 2018 R&M Delite and there is none better. However It does requires a min. of 24-60 volts and the only way to hook it up is it is not off the motor (max light output 6 volts) but rather by splicing the three wires into the battery/motor cable. This cannot be done on a gen 4 motor without triggering an error code in the Bosch system and likely voiding the warranty.

Here is a link to Supernova's compatibility chart. Some who regard themselves as the second coming of Nicola Tesla might try defy this chart but for the average hobbyist mechanic I counsel compliance,

 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
Not sure why you posted the M99 Pro info.

I have the Supernova M99 Pro on my 2018 R&M Delite and there is none better. However It does requires a min. of 24-60 volts and the only way to hook it up is it is not off the motor (max light output 6 volts) but rather by splicing the three wires into the battery/motor cable. This cannot be done on a gen 4 motor without triggering an error code in the Bosch system and likely voiding the warranty.

Here is a link to Supernova's compatibility chart. Some who regard themselves as the second coming of Nicola Tesla might try defy this chart but for the average hobbyist mechanic I counsel compliance,

I failed to explain that the linked PDF has a wiring diagram in it for those that are willing to take the risk against compliance, nothing to do with the M99 Pro.
In the spirit of Right To Repair :)
 
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Alaskan

Well-Known Member
I failed to explain that the linked PDF has a wiring diagram in it for those that are willing to take the risk against compliance, nothing to do with the M99 Pro.
In the spirit of Right To Repair :)
"repair"? Not so much, rather right to modify, tinker, and risk loss of warranty. I'm as guilty as anyone one for digging in deep and making my bikes, if not better, at least mine.

When I buy a complex and premium pruduct with a solid warranty, I usually wait for it to expire and then it's fair game.
 

webcurl

Well-Known Member
"repair"? Not so much, rather right to modify, tinker, and risk loss of warranty. I'm as guilty as anyone one for digging in deep and making my bikes, if not better, at least mine.

I'm not sure of the warranty status of ava1ar 's ebike, perhaps you could shed some light?
Right to repair leads to easier modification & tinker.

When I buy a complex and premium pruduct with a solid warranty, I usually wait for it to expire and then it's fair game.

Absolutely, agreed!
 

ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
I'm not sure of the warranty status of ava1ar 's ebike, perhaps you could shed some light?
It is still under warranty, however it is not a show stopper for me. First of all, Bosch motors are quite reliable, so I consider risk of failure which will require serious repairs or replacement as low. Second factor is that I am not really messing with complex electronic or motor itself and not making any non-revertible changes - if I can't use power from front light, I will just revert all back. And as 3rd thing, I am not the guy who uses stock - I like to improve and customize things I own, so I already replaced front fork and going to replace rear wheel and gears shifter pretty soon (while Enviolo is not bad, it is far from perfect, I prefer some more traditional hub and shifter, so I built a wheel with Kindernay VII hub to use instead).
 

ava1ar

Active Member
Region
USA
City
Leonia, NJ
"repair"? Not so much, rather right to modify, tinker, and risk loss of warranty.
I consider this as a repair of some kind. If Bosch didn't bother to give people working USB power port, I am willing to fix that.