Once more into the breach...an attempt to understand (not judge) throttle vs. mid-drive torque sensing -

jaizon

Active Member
I do not want to start a throttle/no throttle war. I just want to understand how torque sensing works in the following example.
I am stopped at the bottom of a steep hill with my torque sensing mid drive. I push on the pedal. What happens? Thanks you for bearing with me on this.
 

J.R.

Well-Known Member
I am stopped at the bottom of a steep hill with my torque sensing mid drive. I push on the pedal. What happens?
Most torque sensing bikes offer assist the instant you press on the pedals. And if you have it set to the highest PAS setting you'll get all the assist the bike can offer. Just like a throttle. Many cadence sensing bikes require the cranks to spin prior to getting assist to kick in. That's why a throttle can be helpful on cadence sensing bikes.
 

rich c

Well-Known Member
If you are in a gear that allows you to move like you would on a traditional bike, the hard effort on the pedal instantly senses the effort and tells the controller to allow maximum electrical current to go to the motor and you ride up the hill. On a Bosch, it's a smooth transition and it's no different than starting out on the flat.
 

jaizon

Active Member
If you are in a gear that allows you to move like you would on a traditional bike, the hard effort on the pedal instantly senses the effort and tells the controller to allow maximum electrical current to go to the motor and you ride up the hill. On a Bosch, it's a smooth transition and it's no different than starting out on the flat.

If you are in a gear that allows you to move like you would on a traditional bike, the hard effort on the pedal instantly senses the effort and tells the controller to allow maximum electrical current to go to the motor and you ride up the hill. On a Bosch, it's a smooth transition and it's no different than starting out on the flat.

And the bike picks up the speed necessary to keep stability?
 

Cowlitz

Well-Known Member
I have both. My mid drive bike is shifted into a low gear to start in, the assist is set to a level depending on how fast I want to get going, or if I am starting up a hill--more power or down a hill--less power. It helps even more if the pedal you will push is UP. Yes, the bike picks up speed, and how quickly it does depends on what assist level you have it in.

This was hard for me to learn. I was spoiled by having a bike with a throttle.
 

JRA

Well-Known Member
A friend of mine who doesn't have his own eBike but has had access to a Bosch equipped eBike that he has used alot has been riding my new TSDZ2 bike several times now. The other day on a ride he mentioned that he had ridden the other bike and really missed the throttle feature that I had shown him how to use from a standing start effectively. Otherwise he had no further input....

But as mentioned either way you have to be in a low gear for starting out as you would on a regular bike.
 

Cowlitz

Well-Known Member
I just went on a ride with a friend. She had a throttle, I did not. She was definitely quicker in taking off from stops.
 

Sierratim

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Nevada City, CA & Paradise Valley, AZ
I just went on a ride with a friend. She had a throttle, I did not. She was definitely quicker in taking off from stops.
Did the bikes have comparable motor setups; i.e. both hub motors of similar ratings?
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Taking off from a stop-
Re: throttle. With quality firmware (yes there is junk available), you can use just enough power, just long enough to get you moving and get your balance, then the cadense sensor and PAS level settings take over as soon as you start pedaling. Throttle can be forgotten 4-6' from the point the tires start rolling.

Torques sensor requires you to push down on the pedal, before you have your balance, and hopefully you're in the right gear with the right amount of assist set. Fine for younguns and those with current riding experience. Maybe not so much for older folks (like me!) that may have lack of experience, strength, and/or balance issues.

My thoughts anyway, FWIW. -Al
 

jaizon

Active Member
Taking off from a stop-
Re: throttle. With quality firmware (yes there is junk available), you can use just enough power, just long enough to get you moving and get your balance, then the cadense sensor and PAS level settings take over as soon as you start pedaling. Throttle can be forgotten 4-6' from the point the tires start rolling.

Torques sensor requires you to push down on the pedal, before you have your balance, and hopefully you're in the right gear with the right amount of assist set. Fine for younguns and those with current riding experience. Maybe not so much for older folks (like me!) that may have lack of experience, strength, and/or balance issues.

My thoughts anyway, FWIW. -Al

I was afraid of that. Might just be the reason I don't get a mid drive. Crap. :mad:
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I was afraid of that. Might just be the reason I don't get a mid drive. Crap. :mad:

There ARE mid drives with throttles, or those that can have a throttle added! Juiced for instance, offers bikes with both a throttle and torque sensing.

Edit: oops, slipped into hub mode. So let me rephrase. I THINK there are mid drives with both throttles and torque sensing, or bikes that come with torque sensing that are able to have throttles added.
 

Art Deco

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Selinsgrove
I just went on a ride with a friend. She had a throttle, I did not. She was definitely quicker in taking off from stops.
Did she have a 750 watt and you a 250 watt? Does she weigh less? Ect, etc, etc. Just switch bikes with her and try it.
 

Sierratim

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Nevada City, CA & Paradise Valley, AZ
Our first ebikes were throttle controlled. No PAS, no firmware. The throttle did help get going on slopes and difficult terrain. Our new ebikes use lots of firmware, PAS and torque sensing. They are so good that getting going with them is easier than with the throttle, even though we're now in our 70's.

Not saying throttles are bad! Just saying that ebikes have advanced, alot. Do test rides. Judge for yourself.
 

Cowlitz

Well-Known Member
Did she have a 750 watt and you a 250 watt? Does she weigh less? Ect, etc, etc. Just switch bikes with her and try it.

She was riding a Radmini with a hub drive and I was on my Gazelle Elite with a Bosch mid drive. I also have a Radmini so am familiar with how they go. On a steep hill here, I can pedal up in assist level 5 easily on the mini. On the Gazelle, I have to work hard to pedal up it. But the Gazelle gets better battery mileage and feels and handles like a very nice acoustic bike does--light, responsive and balanced.
 

Art Deco

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Selinsgrove
She was riding a Radmini with a hub drive and I was on my Gazelle Elite with a Bosch mid drive. I also have a Radmini so am familiar with how they go. On a steep hill here, I can pedal up in assist level 5 easily on the mini. On the Gazelle, I have to work hard to pedal up it. But the Gazelle gets better battery mileage and feels and handles like a very nice acoustic bike does--light, responsive and balanced.
Since you have ridden both types (close enough), the decision is going to be yours ... what matters to you the most? Nothing is perfect, afterall. I prefer pedaling hard on occasion to the constant Minibike like feel of some rear hub types, but YMMV . I haven't ridden either of those bikes or many of the hundreds available after all. If I could add a throttle for $100 I would, but I wouldn't pay much for one.
 

Alex M

Well-Known Member
Are you comparing torque sensing on mid-drive with throttle on a hub? Because there are throttles on some mid-drives too.
And the bike {with torque on mid-drive} picks up the speed necessary to keep stability?
Yes, if you keep pedaling and if you're in the correct gear.

Throttle on a hub will get you started regardless of the gearing. Some controllers on hubs won't start throttle (and cadence PAS) until after half-revolution of pedals, though most of them would start at least the throttle without any pedal movement.

Starting cadence PAS from dead stop can't be instant because sensor needs to see the cadence, this can be "almost" instant on some controllers and a second or two on others. Delay on cadence PAS was hard to avoid in old bikes with 4 or 5 magnets, but now with 12 magnets this is a matter of controller programming.
 
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Cowlitz

Well-Known Member
Here is a Radmini with rear hub drive and a throttle.
DSC00395.JPG


Here is a Gazelle Elite with mid drive and no throttle.
DSC01166.JPG