Once more into the breach...an attempt to understand (not judge) throttle vs. mid-drive torque sensing -

jaizon

Active Member
The Evelo Aurora comes to mind. Mid-drive, throttle, torque sensing, plus belt drive and an internal geared hub.

Yes!! and I am looking at that bike -- for a while. It does tick every box, and would get me going from a standstill. My driveway is the hill I have the most trouble with and it is always at the end of my ride. A quarter mile of uphill dirt and stones. Bumpy, hard, soft and just a horror. How did I miss that throttle bit. Jeez, what a dope. But much thanks, Nova. Only issue left is the standover (for me stepover height). Bad arthritis in back make it very hard to lift either leg and no dealers on the east coast for me to try one.
 
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fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
you might want to get a smaller chain ring on the Bosch. I find them to be geared too high for good hill climbing. I can go up most hills without a lot of effort in sport at about 20 and 18 or 19 with some work in our and I am not that strong. both my speed and our tandem needed lower gearing to climb well.
 

Alex M

Well-Known Member
Only issue left is the standover (for me stepover height). Bad arthritis in back make it very hard to lift either leg and no dealers on the east coast for me to try one.
Step-through frame of Aurora Evelo has very modest 16.5" standover. Many other step-through frames have 18-20" standover. Rent for a few hours any non-electrical beach cruiser with 16-18" standover, shouldn't cost more than $5. If this doesn't work then you need a really low step-through, this will limit your search.
 

Sierratim

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Nevada City, CA & Paradise Valley, AZ
She was riding a Radmini with a hub drive and I was on my Gazelle Elite with a Bosch mid drive. I also have a Radmini so am familiar with how they go. On a steep hill here, I can pedal up in assist level 5 easily on the mini. On the Gazelle, I have to work hard to pedal up it. But the Gazelle gets better battery mileage and feels and handles like a very nice acoustic bike does--light, responsive and balanced.
There's a big difference in motor specs between these bikes. The Gazelle has the Bosh Active Line Plus mid-drive rated at 250W nominal power and 50Nm of torque. The Radmini has a 750W Bafang hub motor. Its torque specs are tougher to tie down but seem to be about 80Nm. I would think the Radmini would be better 'off the line' and up the hills almost regardless of the throttle vs torque sensor question.
 

Art Deco

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Selinsgrove
There's a big difference in motor specs between these bikes. The Gazelle has the Bosh Active Line Plus mid-drive rated at 250W nominal power and 50Nm of torque. The Radmini has a 750W Bafang hub motor. Its torque specs are tougher to tie down but seem to be about 80Nm. I would think the Radmini would be better 'off the line' and up the hills almost regardless of the throttle vs torque sensor question.
What he said.
 

jaizon

Active Member
Step-through frame of Aurora Evelo has very modest 16.5" standover. Many other step-through frames have 18-20" standover. Rent for a few hours any non-electrical beach cruiser with 16-18" standover, shouldn't cost more than $5. If this doesn't work then you need a really low step-through, this will limit your search.

The Evelo website lists the stepover at 18" for the Aurora Limited. Where did you see 16.5"? Thanks.
 

jaizon

Active Member
you might want to get a smaller chain ring on the Bosch. I find them to be geared too high for good hill climbing. I can go up most hills without a lot of effort in sport at about 20 and 18 or 19 with some work in our and I am not that strong. both my speed and our tandem needed lower gearing to climb well.

Can you explain this to me a bit further. I'm not interested in top speeds over 20 in any case. Thanks.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
Can you explain this to me a bit further. I'm not interested in top speeds over 20 in any case. Thanks.
my bosch speed biek had a 22t chainring and a 11-32 cassette. I would spin out maybe 100 rpm cadence at about 36 mph. way faster then I needed. I put a 18t chain ring on and now maybe 32 is the max but I can climb hills with less power and on lower assist levels. like a 16 degree grade was really hard now its not. on ourtandem with the same motor but not a sped motor it has a 40t chain ring and a 11-34 cassette. top speed was mabye 24 but the motor only gives you 20. so I changed the chain ring to 34 and the cassette to 11-42 now we can get up those 16 degree grades with some work and everything is is a lot easier and we get more range too. so having smaller chain rings will give you more torque and give you more distance but you will loose some top end speed. so if you go 20 and still have a couple gears left to go then you can put a smaller chain ring on and get a lot of benefits.
 

jaizon

Active Member
my bosch speed biek had a 22t chainring and a 11-32 cassette. I would spin out maybe 100 rpm cadence at about 36 mph. way faster then I needed. I put a 18t chain ring on and now maybe 32 is the max but I can climb hills with less power and on lower assist levels. like a 16 degree grade was really hard now its not. on ourtandem with the same motor but not a sped motor it has a 40t chain ring and a 11-34 cassette. top speed was mabye 24 but the motor only gives you 20. so I changed the chain ring to 34 and the cassette to 11-42 now we can get up those 16 degree grades with some work and everything is is a lot easier and we get more range too. so having smaller chain rings will give you more torque and give you more distance but you will loose some top end speed. so if you go 20 and still have a couple gears left to go then you can put a smaller chain ring on and get a lot of benefits.

Will bike companies (like Evelo) do that for you before they ship?
In the Court review. Did you try some frame with 18", anyway?

I will watch again.

I have several factors which put me in the high risk category for Covid, so I have only been out to ride my e-trike for one hour every day. There is just no way I will visit an e-bike store to try anything for the foreseeable future. But that does not mean I cannot buy a new bike. I just have to find other ways of checking all the boxes. It is quite frustrating, but thank you so much for your input. :)
 

AlanDB

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Iowa
Taking off from a stop-
Re: throttle. With quality firmware (yes there is junk available), you can use just enough power, just long enough to get you moving and get your balance, then the cadense sensor and PAS level settings take over as soon as you start pedaling. Throttle can be forgotten 4-6' from the point the tires start rolling.

Torques sensor requires you to push down on the pedal, before you have your balance, and hopefully you're in the right gear with the right amount of assist set. Fine for younguns and those with current riding experience. Maybe not so much for older folks (like me!) that may have lack of experience, strength, and/or balance issues.

My thoughts anyway, FWIW. -Al
I agree with these statements. One thing I might add is that the startup/balance issue on a mid drive is somewhat mitigated on bikes like my Gazelle Arroyo that have an IGH (internal geared hub) shifter. This allows you to downshift while stopped so you can always take off in the lowest gear needed. That said, I do wish my Arroyo had a throttle because a throttle is useful in many situations. I love the way the Bosch torque sensing system rides though, and I would not give it up in order to have the throttle.

Are there any mid drives on the market that come with an auto shifter like the NuVinci and include a throttle? That combination would definitely interest me as that would eliminate the issue of the throttle on a mid drive stressing the motor by using it in too high of a gear at too low of a speed.

Edit: Oh wait! I guess the Evelo Aurora Limited has already been mentioned that has this combination ... definitely worth a look. But I wonder if the torque sensing on the Aurora is as smooth as the Bosch systems.
 
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MarkF

Active Member
I have a Raleigh retroglide beach cruiser style bike with mid drive motor, cadence sensor and throttle that got added on. When you come to a stop, you need to down shift to the appropriate gear. For me it's second gear. It comes easy what to do once you do it a few times. I can start off easy with just the cadence sensor or throttle but I need to be in the right gear if I want a smooth transition. I follow my wife on our rides and she rarely down shifts when we come to a stop. Her bike only has a torque sensor and I see her struggle to get going because she doesn't down shift. I have told her enough times to down shift to the point she doesn't like me telling her anymore. So how you ride your bike is up to you, a I see no need to struggle with anything if you just ride your bike like your suppose too. LOL
 

jaizon

Active Member
I agree with these statements. One thing I might add is that the startup/balance issue on a mid drive is somewhat mitigated on bikes like my Gazelle Arroyo that have an IGH (internal geared hub) shifter. This allows you to downshift while stopped so you can always take off in the lowest gear needed. That said, I do wish my Arroyo had a throttle because a throttle is useful in many situations. I love the way the Bosch torque sensing system rides though, and I would not give it up in order to have the throttle.

Are there any mid drives on the market that come with an auto shifter like the NuVinci and include a throttle? That combination would definitely interest me as that would eliminate the issue of the throttle on a mid drive stressing the motor by using it in too high of a gear at too low of a speed.

Edit: Oh wait! I guess the Evelo Aurora Limited has already been mentioned that has this combination ... definitely worth a look. But I wonder if the torque sensing on the Aurora is as smooth as the Bosch systems.

Isn't it the gearing system that determines how smooth the transmission works and how you feel it?
 

AlanDB

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Iowa
For me it is the torque sensing of the Bosch mid drive that gives the smoothness in the assist on my Gazelle bike. On my Blix bike that has a cadence sensing hub drive (and a throttle), the assist kicks in all at once after a revolution or two of the pedals, giving kind of jerky sensation. If you start with the throttle and wait until you gain a little speed before pedaling, it is somewhat smoother, but still not as natural feeling as the assist on the Gazelle.
 

jaizon

Active Member
For me it is the torque sensing of the Bosch mid drive that gives the smoothness in the assist on my Gazelle bike. On my Blix bike that has a cadence sensing hub drive (and a throttle), the assist kicks in all at once after a revolution or two of the pedals, giving kind of jerky sensation. If you start with the throttle and wait until you gain a little speed before pedaling, it is somewhat smoother, but still not as natural feeling as the assist on the Gazelle.

I think the answer to your question is a subjective one and would require someone familiar with both bikes to answer. With the Aurora you have both torque and throttle, so I imagine starting could be activated using both, depending on your needs or taste.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
For me it is the torque sensing of the Bosch mid drive that gives the smoothness in the assist on my Gazelle bike. On my Blix bike that has a cadence sensing hub drive (and a throttle), the assist kicks in all at once after a revolution or two of the pedals, giving kind of jerky sensation. If you start with the throttle and wait until you gain a little speed before pedaling, it is somewhat smoother, but still not as natural feeling as the assist on the Gazelle.

I would just like to mention that a bike starting off with a lurch when the PAS kicks in is one of the ones I was thinking of when considering bikes with "less than desirable" software. PAS systems are NOT all like that. Some assign a given amount of power to each PAS level, others, they are looking at a particular max speed.

In practice, you can give a motor just a little bit of power, and it will accelerate slowly. That amount of power (assist) never changes. Will be the same at 5mph as it will be at 20mph. You want more assist, you jump to the next PAS level.

The type monitoring speed wants you to run at that speed, starting from the time it engages - causing that lurch.
 

AlanDB

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Iowa
I would just like to mention that a bike starting off with a lurch when the PAS kicks in is one of the ones I was thinking of when considering bikes with "less than desirable" software. PAS systems are NOT all like that. Some assign a given amount of power to each PAS level, others, they are looking at a particular max speed.

In practice, you can give a motor just a little bit of power, and it will accelerate slowly. That amount of power (assist) never changes. Will be the same at 5mph as it will be at 20mph. You want more assist, you jump to the next PAS level.

The type monitoring speed wants you to run at that speed, starting from the time it engages - causing that lurch.
I appreciate the explanation. The Blix Aveny bike does this "lurch" at the lowest assist level of 1. But I don't have any experience with other hub drive and/or cadence sensing PAS bikes, so it is good to hear that some of them work better. I only ride the Blix when I have my Gazelle Arroyo in the shop, and even though I like the throttle on the Blix, I am always glad when I get my Gazelle back.

My wife's Evelo Compass trike is actually a mid drive motor with cadence sensing instead of torque sensing on the PAS. I have never ridden it myself ... I should try it to see how it reacts when the PAS kicks in. I have noticed though that when she rides it, she seems to get kind of a lurch when using the throttle from a dead stop. I have always thought that she is probably starting in too high of a gear. The Compass has a three speed IGH.
 
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AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Though my wife's bike is capable of starting very smoothly, that's not the way she uses it. The gives it a big gob of power to get it moving.

Drives her car the same way....