Orbea Gain D50 ( User learning and experiences )

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
I recently purchased an ORBEA Gain 50 for the purpose of learning and drawing conclusions about assisted road bikes. I have practiced road cycling for many years but I am already 68 years old and even though I ride about 7000 km a year, I have lost power in my legs. I normally use a full carbon BMC bike that weighs only 8Kg and my weight is 56Kg.
Bearing in mind that the ORBEA D50 weighs 15kg, my first step in tunning this bike was to do assistance mapping tests to receive only power to compensate for being 7kg overweight and also have 60w to compensate for my age. The rest of the power on the route is up to me. After several rides and assist adjustments, I have managed to establish a satisfactory mapping for my goals.
Attached is a graph of my final result.
As you know the system has 3 levels of assistance. At level 1 you can receive a maximum of 100W. At level 2 175 W maximum and at level 3 you can receive 250 W maximum. This is achieved if you have each level mapped to 100% (default settings). But in my case, after several tests in different topography, and considering my FTP and my total weight and bike, I have come to determine my own assistance values for each level. So I programmed Level 1 at 54% (54W maximum assistance), Level 2 at 52% (90W maximum assistance) and Level 3 at 52% (130W maximum assistance). Incidentally, I rarely use levels 2 and 3 in my tours.
I would like to know about your experience and criteria for mapping your assistance levels.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20211213-142048_Ebikemotion(1).jpg
    Screenshot_20211213-142048_Ebikemotion(1).jpg
    47 KB · Views: 61

StevenC56

Active Member
Region
USA
I recently purchased an ORBEA Gain 50 for the purpose of learning and drawing conclusions about assisted road bikes. I have practiced road cycling for many years but I am already 68 years old and even though I ride about 7000 km a year, I have lost power in my legs. I normally use a full carbon BMC bike that weighs only 8Kg and my weight is 56Kg.
Bearing in mind that the ORBEA D50 weighs 15kg, my first step in tunning this bike was to do assistance mapping tests to receive only power to compensate for being 7kg overweight and also have 60w to compensate for my age. The rest of the power on the route is up to me. After several rides and assist adjustments, I have managed to establish a satisfactory mapping for my goals.
Attached is a graph of my final result.
As you know the system has 3 levels of assistance. At level 1 you can receive a maximum of 100W. At level 2 175 W maximum and at level 3 you can receive 250 W maximum. This is achieved if you have each level mapped to 100% (default settings). But in my case, after several tests in different topography, and considering my FTP and my total weight and bike, I have come to determine my own assistance values for each level. So I programmed Level 1 at 54% (54W maximum assistance), Level 2 at 52% (90W maximum assistance) and Level 3 at 52% (130W maximum assistance). Incidentally, I rarely use levels 2 and 3 in my tours.
I would like to know about your experience and criteria for mapping your assistance levels.
For me the splits that feel linear are 50%, 75%, and 100%. But I'm quite a bit heavier than you and obviously not in as good of shape.
 

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
For me the splits that feel linear are 50%, 75%, and 100%. But I'm quite a bit heavier than you and obviously not in as good of shape.
Thanks SteavenC56 for sharing your settings. That means your assistance levels are: L1=50W, L2=131W, and L3=250W.
How far are your usual routes? Do you have records of the % utilization of each level of assistance in a usual route? How much do you contribute and how much assistance?
 

StevenC56

Active Member
Region
USA
Mostly flat with a few slight elevation changes. I usually use level one and some level 2 for wind and slight inclines. I don't have any record of utilization. By your information is looks like I need to bump my level 1 up and level 2 down to be completely linear to get about 62.5 watts level 1, 125 watts level 2, and the full 250 watts level 3.
 

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
Mostly flat with a few slight elevation changes. I usually use level one and some level 2 for wind and slight inclines. I don't have any record of utilization. By your information is looks like I need to bump my level 1 up and level 2 down to be completely linear to get about 62.5 watts level 1, 125 watts level 2, and the full 250 watts level 3.
SteavenC56 I recommend that you install the My Smartbike app on your cell phone, with it you can record a huge amount of data during your ride, and later you can draw your own conclusions (attached my ride today). After enough runs you will be able to conclude on what your optimal settings for assist levels are. The ultimate goal is to achieve challenging distance and effort courses without draining the system's battery.
 

Attachments

  • 2022-01-23 16_17_05-Window.png
    2022-01-23 16_17_05-Window.png
    143.7 KB · Views: 75

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
As I mentioned at the beginning, I bought this bicycle with the purpose of testing and learning a little more about the benefits and advantages of having a certain level of power assistance in the practice of cycling. Especially for people who have reached a certain age and who want to continue enjoying demanding tours.
Bearing in mind that in every route the greatest contribution of power will always come from your human body, it is wonderful to know that on the E-bike you have an energy deposit (battery) which you can use when you need extra power to overcome some momentary requirement of your journey.
The energy available in the battery is a finite resource, and the ultimate goal is to achieve an optimized use that allows us to achieve the greatest distance or the greatest demand.
This is how my first learning is that the optimal use of an E-bike requires proper management of the energy available in the battery.
My first step was then to determine the optimal mapping of assistance levels, for my physical condition and type of routes that I usually practice. Knowing those levels, days before a tour, I do a preliminary planning of the energy management that I must do during the tour, which allows me to make sure that I will not be left without assistance and will return home happy.
The My Smartbike application allows me to collect a lot of information about the route and thus I have been forming a database to make my estimates and adjustments.
 

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
How to customize power assistance levels.
There must be many ways to accomplish this task. In what follows I allow myself to share my thoughts and procedures for it, which have given me good results and have allowed me to properly manage the available energy to make longer and more challenging routes.
First of all let's go to the basics: the practice of cycling is based on the application of power to the cranks of the bicycle to achieve displacement. The speed of displacement will depend on the amount of power applied to overcome forces of nature (gravity, rolling resistance, headwind resistance,...). The greater these forces to overcome, the greater the power that we must deliver to the bottom bracket pedals.
Every human being is capable of delivering a finite amount of power, too much or too little doesn't matter. It is what it is! This power depends on genetics, age, diet, physical condition, environment, hydration, ... so that for a cyclist it becomes like his precious resource.
The power that is measured in Watts (W) can be measured in a sustained manner for different lengths of time. For example, I can deliver 500 W but only for 3 seconds, or I can deliver 160 W continuously for 1 hour, or I can deliver 70 W for 5 hours continuously ( see attached graph ,my apologies for the language. ) .... In cycling jargon, the FTP parameter is used, which it becomes the level of functional power, theoretically the maximun power delivered in a sustained manner for 1 hour. Each cyclist has his FTP and as I said it is our FTP since every human being is different. It is not my purpose to delve into these concepts, for those who so wish I leave the following reference: Training and Racing with a power meter, 2nd edition, Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan, PhD.
So our FTP is a true indication of the ability of our body to deliver power in the practice of cycling. There are several ways and methodologies to estimate our FTP, it is not the case to explain them here, but from my modest experience in cycling in a safe and orderly way, I have come to the conclusion that knowing our FTP is very valuable. I will continue in the next few days...
 

Attachments

  • 2022-01-29 11_04_22-Strava _ Curva de la potencia.png
    2022-01-29 11_04_22-Strava _ Curva de la potencia.png
    43.9 KB · Views: 51

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
Since we already know what our capacity to deliver power to the pedals is , and even better, what is our capacity to sustain that power for 1 hour (FTP), we will see that this capacity, at the end, will serve to move a mass (my body + the bicycle) which is fundamentally affected by the force of gravity. The more mass to move, the more power we must deliver. As our FTP is unique and has a "fixed" value, it is interesting to know how many W I have for each Kg of mass to be moved. This ratio is known as W/Kg and is an indication that provides a lot of information. Studies carried out by Dr. Collang classify these ranges as shown in the attached graph.
Our objective as a formal and constant tourist cyclist is to place ourselves in the "Good" range.
Thus, for example, if a woman has an FTP of 180 W, her mass + the bicycle should be around 83 Kg (if it is less, even better). If we're a bit short, we'll have to compensate with the E-bike's power assistance levels, but let's not forget that the higher the assistance, the shorter the battery capacity lasts. That is why it is very important that our mass is optimal and that the bicycle is as light as possible.
In short: we already know our FTP and that value leads us to know our W/Kg ratio.
Let's see how all this helps us to estimate our power assistance levels in our E-bike.
I will continue in the next few days...
 

Attachments

  • 2022-01-31 15_19_32-Window.png
    2022-01-31 15_19_32-Window.png
    36.5 KB · Views: 55

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
These "W/kg" or "the force of gravity" look unclear to me. There are three fundamental physical phenomena that make the energy (human power and motor assistance) to be consumed on the ride:
  1. Acceleration: To move a body of mass m from speed v1 to v2 over time t, we need to gain kinetic energy Ek, which is ΔEk = ½ * m * (v2 - v1). Gaining the kinetic energy (accelerating) depends on the body mass.
  2. Elevation gain: To lift a body of mass m from elevation h1 to h2, we need to gain potential energy Ep, which is ΔEp = m * (h2 - h1) * g, where g is the gravity. Gaining the potential energy (climbing) also depends on the body mass.
  3. There are only two resistances to be overcome when the body moves with the constant speed in straight line: rolling resistance and air-drag. Rolling resistance depends on the body weight because the latter affects the normal force acting through wheels on the surface ridden, and also it deforms the tyres, especially at low inflation pressure. Air-drag is independent on the body mass! At higher riding speed, the air-drag is the greatest contributing resistance the rider has to overcome.
  • As we stop pedalling, the kinetic energy is used to maintain the bike momentum until the energy is used up for countering both the rolling resistance and air-drag, that is, until the bike comes to a halt. Or, applying brakes makes the kinetic energy irreversibly lost to heat in brakes. Heavier rider + bike would use the accumulated kinetic energy for a longer time than a lightweight body.
  • When we descent (ride downhill), potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. That's why bikes tend to accelerate on declines. Heavier body will accelerate to a greater speed than the more lightweight one.
Antonio: Could you please take these phenomena in your considerations?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ngg

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
Hi Stefan, as you can see in 1,2,3, the cyclist's mass is part of the equation corresponding to each affectation: whether in acceleration, ascent or rolling resistance. Hence, Dr Coggan's studies were based on a huge collection of data from different types of cyclists to try to conclude on what would be a "Power Profile" of our strengths and weaknesses as a cyclist. "When we began collecting data on various riders, it was because we simply wanted to get a clear picture of the power that different types of cyclists could produce. What levels could be attained by elite pro riders? What could masters riders do? What about beginners?From these datasets, we were able to create the Power Profile chart... Dr Coggan, Training and Racing with a Power Meter, page 53.
Thus, for example, a "World class" cyclist like the ones we see in the Tour de France, the Giro d'Italia, or La Vuelta a Espana, are capable of sustaining 6.4 W/Kg for an hour or even more. Or to reach 25 or more W/Kg in a 5 second sprint. While an untrained cyclist will hold perhaps 1.8 W/Kg for an hour or just 10 W/Kg in his 5-second sprint. That is why to cycle in a somewhat orderly and structured way we must start by determining our "Power Profile", in other words where I am in the table and from there I will be able to improve my weaknesses and take advantage of my strengths, and to get a quick idea if we are untrained, if we are good, very good, Pro, or what we are in terms of Power Profile. The important thing is that at tourist cycling we can do a lot.
Let's not forget that all these studies have been developed for professional cycling, but we as amateurs can take advantage of them.
In short: we already know our FTP and our Weight those values lead us to know our W/Kg ratio.
Let's see how all this helps us to estimate our power assistance levels in our E-bike.
I will continue in the next few days...
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
It is all very interesting you are talking about Antonio!

Now, I am an ailing person with FTP of only 73 W and of 0.8 W/kg. As you might understand, I'm the type of person who needs a lot of assistance on my rides. As an owner of two Specialized e-bikes of the 2020/2021 generation, I can use BLEvo app to display any rider, bike, and trip parameter, and record it in historical files. (Specialized closed that possibility to the 2022 e-bikes, sadly). As I tend to record almost any of my trips with BLEvo, I keep a large data collection, and these data allow me easily set both Assistance Level and Max Motor Power parameters for demanding rides. Let me give you two examples (abstracts from two different rides):

1643788212908.png

A long ride on a 45 km/h Vado 5.0/6.0 (a heavy full power e-bike with peak power of 520 W and boost factor of 3.2x). As you can see, I only contributed with 29.3% on that ride.

1643788527105.png

A ride on Vado SL 4.0 (a lightweight e-bike of the maximum motor power of 240 W and the boost factor of 1.8x). Here, I contributed with 50% to the ride!

As I understand Antonio, you cannot do such measurements for your Orbea Gain D50, so I fully understand the aim of your studies!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ngg

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
It is all very interesting you are talking about Antonio!

Now, I am an ailing person with FTP of only 73 W and of 0.8 W/kg. As you might understand, I'm the type of person who needs a lot of assistance on my rides. As an owner of two Specialized e-bikes of the 2020/2021 generation, I can use BLEvo app to display any rider, bike, and trip parameter, and record it in historical files. (Specialized closed that possibility to the 2022 e-bikes, sadly). As I tend to record almost any of my trips with BLEvo, I keep a large data collection, and these data allow me easily set both Assistance Level and Max Motor Power parameters for demanding rides. Let me give you two examples (abstracts from two different rides):

View attachment 113271
A long ride on a 45 km/h Vado 5.0/6.0 (a heavy full power e-bike with peak power of 520 W and boost factor of 3.2x). As you can see, I only contributed with 29.3% on that ride.

View attachment 113272
A ride on Vado SL 4.0 (a lightweight e-bike of the maximum motor power of 240 W and the boost factor of 1.8x). Here, I contributed with 50% to the ride!

As I understand Antonio, you cannot do such measurements for your Orbea Gain D50, so I fully understand the aim of your studies!
Hi Stefan. Thanks a lot for your inputs. To have a clear understanding of your examples, I would like to know how did you arrive to 73W FTP. Did you performe a test or it is based on huge data registered of your rides. Are you sure of that number? Is your mass 91 Kg. The weighted avg power in the examples is the own power with any assistance?
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
To have a clear understanding of your examples, I would like to know how did you arrive to 73W FTP. Did you performe a test or it is based on huge data registered of your rides.
My both Specialized e-bikes include Bluetooth/ANT+ power meters that can be accessed by both BLEvo app and a Wahoo ELEMNT Roam bike computer. Based on my 10000+ km rides in 2021, I can certainly say my FTP is 73 W.

Is your mass 91 Kg.
My body mass is between 90-94 kg, depending on the season.

The weighted avg power in the examples is the own power with any assistance?
That is correct. Regardless if I obtain the data from BLEvo or Wahoo, the weighted average power is from 68 to 80 W. I suffer from inadequate blood supply to my legs, and I am also on blood overpressure blockers. As you can see, I can provide over 400 W of peak power but it can be done only over very short amount of time.
 

ngg

Member
Region
Europe
It is all very interesting you are talking about Antonio!

Now, I am an ailing person with FTP of only 73 W and of 0.8 W/kg. As you might understand, I'm the type of person who needs a lot of assistance on my rides. As an owner of two Specialized e-bikes of the 2020/2021 generation, I can use BLEvo app to display any rider, bike, and trip parameter, and record it in historical files. (Specialized closed that possibility to the 2022 e-bikes, sadly). As I tend to record almost any of my trips with BLEvo, I keep a large data collection, and these data allow me easily set both Assistance Level and Max Motor Power parameters for demanding rides. Let me give you two examples (abstracts from two different rides):

View attachment 113271
A long ride on a 45 km/h Vado 5.0/6.0 (a heavy full power e-bike with peak power of 520 W and boost factor of 3.2x). As you can see, I only contributed with 29.3% on that ride.

View attachment 113272
A ride on Vado SL 4.0 (a lightweight e-bike of the maximum motor power of 240 W and the boost factor of 1.8x). Here, I contributed with 50% to the ride!

As I understand Antonio, you cannot do such measurements for your Orbea Gain D50, so I fully understand the aim of your studies!
Stefan, look, this is how things are. All e-bikes in the European market must meet two requirements. The first one is that the motor must stop assist after reaching 25 kph, and the second one is that the motor gives as much as the cyclist gives. From the latter it follows that you do not need any special application to see how much your contribution is in watts - as much as by the motor, which can be tracked on the official application for all e-bikes. Of course, if you drive up to 25 kph. If you ride over 25 kph the motor shuts down and the entire energy input goes from the cyclist. This contribution can be 0 watts (downhill) or 70 watts eg. (on a flat road), etc., which no one software can determine. Furthermore, there are situations in which a cyclist can cheat a motor and make him work for both of them, such as when the cyclist reduces the speed and increases the cadence. Then the bike rides for both or almost for both, with minimal cyclist input. These are the reasons why the manufacturer has prevented a third party from manipulating the data from the bicycle sensors.

I hope you now understand that everything is relative (as Einstein said) and so is your 73-watts FTP. Try kidding the motor the way I described above, and you'll get even less FTP. And vice versa! And it has nothing to do with a high blood pressure blocker because your maximum cadence is 110 (professional rank ! ). What’s more, cycling in itself lowers blood pressure and increases blood circulation and oxygenation.
 
Last edited:

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
We're going to take a few steps forward and then we can go back to the inputs we've received.
We have fixed some ideas:
1) An E-bike provides some assistance capability, which must be optimally managed to achieve the longest and most challenging rides possible. But unlike an electric bike, on an E bike the cyclist must provide as much energy as possible during the ride. As mentioned by ngg "the motor gives as much as the cyclist gives"
2) It is very important to customize the power assistance levels based on our physical condition, type of rides we want to do.
3) Our physical condition, we can describe it in terms of our power profile and our mass, through the relationship Watts/Kilograms (W/Kg).
4) From the studies carried out by Coggan, a W/Kg ratio close to 3 is good and would allow us to cycle properly. We will use 3 as a target number.

Let's stop at this point and think about the following scenarios:
A) The cyclist has a W/Kg of 3 or more. The assistance would help him to go faster, or to make less effort, or to make even more challenging rides than he already can on his own.
B) The cyclist has a W/Kg below 3, but not too far. In this case, the assistance levels of the E bike will serve to cover that difference in its power profile and thus reach the value of 3.
C) The cyclist is well below 3 in his W/Kg ratio. So the assistance levels of the E bike will have to supply a lot to cover that difference to 3.
We can already imagine that in case C the energy stored in the battery will last very little compared to case A.

I will continue in the next few days...I hope that this order of ideas so far is clear to you
 

ngg

Member
Region
Europe
(My e-bike is Orbea Vibe, the younger brother of GAIN. In fact, it used to be a F-series Gain that has been slightly redesigned and is now called Vibe.)

The configuration of my typical route is shown in the first picture. In the opposite direction it is similar.

It is common to overcome height differences of 60-100 meters several times. Although I weigh almost 100 kg, at an ascent of over 9 ° (see first picture) motor was engaged with only 190 watts of power (in the second level of assistance). Somewhat later on the route I was forced to the third level of assistance, although the ascent was milder (but I was more tired). After overcoming the climb I turn off the assist. On a flat road (no climb) I ride a bike without any motor assistance (level 0).

The last picture shows the engine map that suits me best.
 

Attachments

  • configuration_of_my_typical_route.png
    configuration_of_my_typical_route.png
    51.5 KB · Views: 47
  • me_and_motor_through_11_hours.png
    me_and_motor_through_11_hours.png
    29.2 KB · Views: 40
  • me_and_motor_in_ascent_through_11_hours.png
    me_and_motor_in_ascent_through_11_hours.png
    28.4 KB · Views: 43
  • motor_map.jpg
    motor_map.jpg
    67.8 KB · Views: 49

AntonioAlfaro

Member
Region
Other
A little more about the mass (kg):
When we refer to mass in the W/Kg ratio, that mass refers only to the mass of the cyclist even though the mass of the bicycle affects the performance of the cyclist. Let us remember that all these studies, definitions and rules come from the world of professional cycling and there is a UCI regulation in which the minimum weight for a road bike is established at 6.8 Kg, so that all federated UCI cyclists will use bicycles with that minimum value. Being the same for all of them, it is not taken into account in the W/Kg ratio.
In the world of amateur cycling, bicycles have greater mass, let's say in the range of 8 to 12 Kg. Even so, we will not take this mass into account up to a certain value.
Road E-bike based on the Mahle X35 + system incorporate an additional mass of 3.5Kg for the hub/motor and battery assembly. So our amateur road bike now converted to an E bike will have a mass of 8 to 12 Kg plus 3.5 Kg. There is a dead weight of 3.5Kg that will punish our power profile W/Kg in addition to the groupset and components used.
We will establish that a mass of up to 8Kg of the bicycle will not be taken into account in our W/Kg ratio ( that will be our amateur imaginary bike mass) , and all mass of the bicycle above 8Kg must be assisted by battery power.
For example a stock Orbea Gain 50 has 15Kg total mass, so in our assistance estimation we will consider a dead mass of 7Kg which will need to be assisted.
In short, if our W/Kg is 3 ( we are ready to do road cycling without any assistance), but now we use a stock Orbea Gain 50 E bike, an amount of battery power will be spent on assisting those dead 7 kg that we didn't have before. But if our W/Kg is below 3 (we need power assitance to reach 3), the battery power will be consumed to assist the power profile difference + the dead mass of 7Kg.
I will continue in the next few days..
 

ngg

Member
Region
Europe
Tires are another thing to consider when determining the amount of energy a cyclist needs to achieve.

The Gain D50 has factory-fitted Hutchinson Fusion 5 Performance TLR 700x30 tires that require over 28 watts (in pair) to reach speeds of 29 kph (18 mph) with a load of 42.5 kg (94 lbs) Someone else can use the Vittoria Corsa Speed G + 2.0 TLR which (in pair) require only 15 watts to reach a speed of 29 kph (18 mph) with a load of 42.5 kg (94 lbs).

I ride a Vibe on factory-installed Kenda Kwick700 700x45 city / trekking tires that require over 50 watts (in pair) (probably, because I don't know the actual measurements) for the same speed and load, which is the "price" for greater comfort and greater puncture protection.

So, if I switched to some road tires with good CRR, I could save about 40 watts, which would make it much easier to overcome the climb. BTW, I've been looking for tires like this for a while. I seem to be too picky or looking for the Holy Grail. Ok, I can save 40 watts even with a little less of my weight, but it's harder for me to achieve - it can't be bought! ;)
 
Last edited:

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
There's some issue ngg here. Yes, you could find the tyres of the least possible rolling resistance. Such tyres would probably be vulnerable to punctures, and I doubt you could really ride them outside of excellent pavement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ngg

ngg

Member
Region
Europe
I know Stefan, that's why I'm picky. I'm going for a ride.
 

Attachments

  • 20220208_131226.jpg
    20220208_131226.jpg
    438.6 KB · Views: 44
  • 20220208_135558.jpg
    20220208_135558.jpg
    291.6 KB · Views: 39