Outlet timer and delay?

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
I think everyone is missing what the op is trying to accomplish.
Typical timed outlets do not meet his requirement.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
Anyways it should not matter why I need a solution nor should I have to justify it. I thought that maybe the community had some ideas. If you can't think of any other ideas please don't be rude because I don't take the first advice that came along that I had already thought of. I had the solution of a smart plug the 3rd post and if I cannot find a solution that's a simple one I will use the smart outlet route. If you don't have any other ideas to contribute I am not sure why it feels like you are getting frustrated cause I won't settle on an answer after 2 opinions on the subject. There is alot of community knowledge out here and want to wait to here what others do is all. Maybe something neither of us thought about! I'm an open thinker and do IT for a living, I don't just settle for duct tape solutions because there are free or I don't want a better solution.
I could care less if you use my ideas I gave you several of them and you wanted some magical solution . you want to do things that are just not really practical. you want automation that thats not automated. there is a device that pushes a button it can turn mechanical switches on and off it runs from your phone and can be setup to run on a schedule. you get that and a wemo set to turn off after on 6 hours. you set a timer on your phone for that device to push the wemo button in 2 hours that turns on the wemo then the wemo will turn off in 6 hours and your done. rinse and repeat every time you need to charge your battery. spending on the device it may be able to send you a notice that it has happened. another solution by a wemo and a mechanical timer. set the timer for 2 hours off 6 hours on set the wemo for 8 hours on. you start the demo with a button push or your phone it runs the mechanical timer the timer runs the charger then turns off. you will have to turn the timer to the start each time you use it. or even easier buy a second battery.
 

BlackHand

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Western WA
I think everyone is missing what the op is trying to accomplish.
Typical timed outlets do not meet his requirement.
No, it's pretty straightforward:. They want a 2 hour delay before triggering an 'on' state, then they want the 'on' state to turn off 6 hours later and they need it to not be schedule bound or auto repeating. It's just not a combination typically found in timers.

The only practical mechanical way I can think of using off the shelf countdown timers would involve setting up a lamp on a simple countdown timer and the charger hooked up to a separate countdown timer with a photocell on it(like they sell for holiday lights).

OP could trigger the first timer when they park the bike in the garage, the lamp turns off 2 hours later triggering the second timer to turn on the charger for 6 hours. Should work, but in practicality is just trading out different failure points for the ones the OP is trying to avoid (internet failure or forgetting to unplug the bike).
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
No, it's pretty straightforward:. They want a 2 hour delay before triggering an 'on' state, then they want the 'on' state to turn off 6 hours later and they need it to not be schedule bound or auto repeating. It's just not a combination typically found in timers.

The only practical mechanical way I can think of using off the shelf countdown timers would involve setting up a lamp on a simple countdown timer and the charger hooked up to a separate countdown timer with a photocell on it(like they sell for holiday lights).

OP could trigger the first timer when they park the bike in the garage, the lamp turns off 2 hours later triggering the second timer to turn on the charger for 6 hours. Should work, but in practicality is just trading out different failure points for the ones the OP is trying to avoid (internet failure or forgetting to unplug the bike).
Hahahaha...I know exactly what he wants to do... It's the replies he's getting about timers I was referring to.
The suggestion I made in post 16 is what he needs, but it requires some basic electrical skills.
 

Sparky731

Member
Region
USA
City
Madison, WI
MrCaspan, yes, my timer recommendation was for unique purposes. We use them in the kitchen to time crockpots. Below is what I use for my bikes: I built a holder for the chargers and a mult-plug outlet controlled by this TOPGREENER timer. Works great other than I need to set it for each use, although I could set up a recurring charging time any or all days of the week.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FDFLFJL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

MrCaspan

Member
The one for work I think I am going to use a 24H rotary timer as it's easy to plug in right away when I get there set it to 2H before it clicks on and then set it for 6H. I'm never at work obviously for more than 24H so when I leave for the day I just unplug it. It won't work for home though where I take the battery down to the basement to charge and sometimes never go back down for a while. I'll look at that timer to see if it will do a delay.
 

MrCaspan

Member
I don't think that you will find this ready made for home use especially now that smart outlets are so common and probably your best bet.

If you are somewhat handy, you can definitely build something as ON_Delay/OFF_Delay relays are very common for commercial/industrial applications.
Here's an example
@Gionnirocket Sorry I didn't even see this reply. This looks doable! I would just need a project box to put this in and stick two power squids coming out for my 2 bike batteries at home (Mine and my partners bike).
 

MrCaspan

Member
I think I found one!!


I just need to know if I have to set the timer every single time or if I can program it then just hit a button to repeat the cycle when I need to charge. I'm kind of excited to actually build one using that timer you linked to if not. I did a year of electrotech in collage so I am not afraid to solder!
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
If you really want to tinker... You could incorporate a solar battery charger with the ON_Delay relay as I did here
Then you could set a specific shut off voltage. You'd still need to set an OFF time as depending on your BMS it may try to top off to the set voltage every 15 minutes. My battery has an OFF switch so if I leave it off after initiating the charge it doesn't.... YMMV
 

Browneye

Well-Known Member
If your battery is getting hot after riding there's something wrong.
Just charge it to 50-60% after a ride if you're going to store it. If your charger doesn't have that setting built in, a plug-in timer could be set to shut if off. Or charge it for an hour and unplug it.
Why oh why do people make this so complicated? All these machinations to maybe get a few more cycles past 500 - of which the average rider will take more than ten years to reach. It's just a non-issue really.

One of our bikes that got ridden a lot now shows 9 full cycles in a year. YMMV.
 

MrCaspan

Member
@Gionnirocket That sounds really cool! You have my brain going now! Simple project for now I'll just do the timer with delay. You got my brain going now, I might make a version 2.0 where I dump the contents of a charger into a project box and add a circuit to delay x Hours then charge to x% then turn off! Simple Arduino, LCD and relay would do it!
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
There's a million ways to skin this cat.
I like to come up with creative solutions and tinker. These little projects serve a purpose and keeping me out of trouble is just one of them.
 

MrCaspan

Member
@Browneye if you battery does NOT heat up then there is something wrong with YOUR battery. They produce heat while discharging that's just science and physics. Think about it you take 6-8 hours to charge them and then you go for a ride and discharge them in 2 hours. Power going in is no difference from going out and it produces heat. Heat damages a battery and affects its life. Why don't you think you cant just shove 100 amps into a battery and have it charge in 10 min? It's because it would damage the life of the battery so bad it would affect its life. So they decide on on a happy compromise of just enough juice to get it topped up fast without damaging the battery too much. Really we should be trickle charging these batteries over 16-24H or longer to preserve the life of the battery. But this would not be reasonable waiting this long for a battery to charge. Charging the battery when it's hot will reduce it life so instead of getting 500 cycles you only get 450. I ride my bike 5x a week year round to work and charge it from 50% to full at work and same once I get home. This bike is my main transportation. That's a full cycle a day not to mention weekend trips that drain the whole thing. My battery is going to last like 2 years max. To you it's not worth it to others its worth it to get let's say 50 more cycles out of it. This is why I am trying so hard to make it so simple so you don't have to think about it. You do you and us tinkerers will do us. Imagine the world if we just accepted everything for what it was and never tinkered. Imagine we just accepted bikes and didn't tinker with them and put a battery and motor on them. People like us and our tinkering are how things improve for others so they don't have to think about it and just set it and forget it. Please don't discourage tinkerers!
 
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mjeds

Active Member
Region
USA
i use this, works like you want it to.. starts at a given time, stops after given time.


you have to program it. I always arrive at the office around 9:30 - 9:45 am so I have it set to start charging at 11:30am, I know it takes 4 hours to 4.5 hours to charge my bike, so I have it shut off at 4:00pm. 8 months no issues.


use the same unit at home, starts at 10pm at night and shuts off at 2:30am. every once in a while I note the battery is not at 100% but close enough. 100% on my bike is 54.5volts occasionally I see it at 52.5 - 52.9 at startup in the morning. just means it needed another 30 minutes and my timer cut off too soon. this usually happens when I take an alternate route home or to the office due to traffic or construction adding another mile or 2 to my normal commute.


like you I commute to/from work 4-5 days a week on my bike.
 

MrCaspan

Member
i use this, works like you want it to.. starts at a given time, stops after given time.


you have to program it. I always arrive at the office around 9:30 - 9:45 am so I have it set to start charging at 11:30am, I know it takes 4 hours to 4.5 hours to charge my bike, so I have it shut off at 4:00pm. 8 months no issues.


use the same unit at home, starts at 10pm at night and shuts off at 2:30am. every once in a while I note the battery is not at 100% but close enough. 100% on my bike is 54.5volts occasionally I see it at 52.5 - 52.9 at startup in the morning. just means it needed another 30 minutes and my timer cut off too soon. this usually happens when I take an alternate route home or to the office due to traffic or construction adding another mile or 2 to my normal commute.


like you I commute to/from work 4-5 days a week on my bike.
The solution for work I settled on is just a 24 hour mechanical timer set to 6 hours ON. At our office we are very environmentally responsible and don't like having phantom loads on if not using them. So this solution Crank it to 2 hours before the timer comes on and unplug it when I leave work. At home this would work 90% of the time. But we go riding at all times of the day and some times twice so I need a solution that works 2 hours AFTER I plug it in for home
 
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mjeds

Active Member
Region
USA
The solution for work I settled on is just a 24 hour mechanical timer set to 6 hours ON. At our office we are very environmentally responsible and don't like having phantom loads on if not using them. So this solution Crank it to 2 hours before the timer comes on and unplug it when I leave work. At home this would work 90% of the time. But we go riding at all times of the day and some times twice so I need a solution that works 2 hours AFTER I plug it in for home
understood. smart outlet would be the solution there.

I have 2 e-bikes. my commuter and my weekender. I don't use my commuter for anything other than commuting. I don't want to have an accident or surprise issue on the weekend and not be able to use it to get to work, so for me this timer works fine.

as for a phantom load, what load? if the bike isn't plugged into the charger there is minimal power, nothing that would kill the world. if they are that environmentally responsible they would have solar panels to power their buildings, my company has 250 solar panels our roof to charge all the electric cars our employees have.
 

Browneye

Well-Known Member
@Browneye if you battery does NOT heat up then there is something wrong with YOUR battery. They produce heat while discharging that's just science and physics. Think about it you take 6-8 hours to charge them and then you go for a ride and discharge them in 2 hours. Power going in is no difference from going out and it produces heat. Heat damages a battery and affects its life. Why don't you think you cant just shove 100 amps into a battery and have it charge in 10 min? It's because it would damage the life of the battery so bad it would affect its life. So they decide on on a happy compromise of just enough juice to get it topped up fast without damaging the battery too much. Really we should be trickle charging these batteries over 16-24H or longer to preserve the life of the battery. But this would not be reasonable waiting this long for a battery to charge. Charging the battery when it's hot will reduce it life so instead of getting 500 cycles you only get 450. I ride my bike 5x a week year round to work and charge it from 50% to full at work and same once I get home. This bike is my main transportation. That's a full cycle a day not to mention weekend trips that drain the whole thing. My battery is going to last like 2 years max. To you it's not worth it to others its worth it to get let's say 50 more cycles out of it. This is why I am trying so hard to make it so simple so you don't have to think about it. You do you and us tinkerers will do us. Imagine the world if we just accepted everything for what it was and never tinkered. Imagine we just accepted bikes and didn't tinker with them and put a battery and motor on them. People like us and our tinkering are how things improve for others so they don't have to think about it and just set it and forget it. Please don't discourage tinkerers!

Tinkerer extraordinaire. And you're wasting your time. But carry on...seems to entertain. LOL
I have five cars so I don't ride that much.
The 6ah charger for the Giant bikes has a 60% limit button for a storage charge. Set it and forget it.
And no, my packs don't heat up. Sorry.
 

MrCaspan

Member
@Browneye Thanks for your input, noted!

For anyone else that wants to use a smart switch with an ON/OFF button on it here is my Hubitat rule that I used for my GE plug in smart plug, I called my plug "Bike Charger".

2021-05-25 08_31_26-Bike Charger Timer.png


Because there is a 2 hour delay between turning it on and when the outlet comes on I wanted some visual feedback that this rule is running decided to have the device "Flash" (turn off & on) for 4 seconds. Because my outlet has a on/off indicator light on it and also I can hear the relay click in it so this helps me know the rule is running.

Logic:
I listen for Physical press of the button on the device. The reason I have to listen for the physical button being pressed is because if I just listened for On or Off state change then the rule would be triggered again when I flash the device and when I turn it on 2 hours later. I don't want my rule to get triggered again when the outlet turns back on 2 hours form now. It would just get stuck in an endless loop. So I am listing ONLY for physical button presses in my trigger. So in the first IF bracket i am just testing to see was the physical button used to turn the device ON or OFF.

If the charger just got turned on by the button then test a Boolean value to see if its false if its false then no exist time is already running. If it was true then the rule does nothing (Ignores the on press)
Since the timer is not running set the Boolean to true to indicate the timer is now running. We will flash the charger and then turn it off after 4 seconds. We wait 2 hours then turn it back on, then run for 8 hours then back off and then set the Boolean to false as the timer is no longer running.

The other logic is if I use the button on the device to turn it off it will cancel any timers and return the Boolean to false to indicate no timer is running. I used 10 second delays to test the logic using a lamp and tried starting stopping resetting the timer and all seems to work great. Just thought I would throw it on here incase anyone else uses Hubitat.

I am still going to use the cycle timer idea though as that sounds like a fun project to make! If anyone finds a product that already does this I would still be interested. But I think I am going to be making a charger that allows up to 6A and is adjustable with a LCD and then allow for your charge level or a timer based charge. basically an all in one charger. Should not be hard at all with an Arduino board and a bit of logic.
 

retiredNH

Active Member
Region
USA
Why all the anguish? I understand the theoretical issues surrounding battery charging, heat, 60% etc. But is there real world evidence? IIRC, battery charge cycles are much more of a factor in battery life than precise charging procedures. Besides, any decent charger these days is voltage sensing and smart enough to know to not over-charge a battery.

So is any of this effort worth it in the real world?
 

MrCaspan

Member
My original question was never about about over charging a battery or charging it to a certain %, not sure where anyone got that from. My original question was about finding a factory made device that could delaying a charger 2 hours to allow the battery to cool before charging it for 8 hours. Heat damages the battery so if I just went for a long run the battery will have some heat if I just threw it on the charger it would just continue to heat the battery and it will just reduce the life of the battery IE reduce the cycles. I was just looking for a way to let it cool first. LOL I think I this touched on a few soar spots for some members.