Purchase advice please

zoumerela

New Member
Region
Europe
I don’t have the Frey, defo spent some time going between that and mine before I pulled the trigger though!

What I ended up needing more was range and the power to carry heavyish saddle bags over the nimbleness to tackle proper trails. I went the Chinese route also and saved quite a few $$’s and got what is called the Bikonit MD1000.

Its like a heavy Frey with double batteries. I don’t do “technical” trails, mostly fire roads or just roads. A quick flight of stairs or whatever is no problem for me but a proper “technical” trail I wouldn’t manage and I’d say I probably push my bike to its limits on that front.

It sounds like you’d be more interested in doing proper trails and the likes. What I can say is the Bafang pulls like a train when you need it to.

There are a few guys on here who do have the Frey or similar who you could ask who’d be better informed than me on the Frey. There may even be a thread already if you use the “search feature”.

Again, just ask as much as you can before you pull the trigger.
Good luck however you decide. 👍
Thank you!
 

Terry777

Active Member
Thank you!
No problem. Just checked. There’s a few threads on the forum already on the Frey bikes. Just type “Frey” into the search bar.
I’d also listen to what Stefan and the group has to say. LOADS of real world knowledge and experience there for free!
👍
 

Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Yamaha Moro is unavailable in Europe. It is Giant/Liv/Momentum and Haibike using Yamaha motors in Europe. Do you people read what the OP wrote? :)
Yamaha started coordinating its European OEM e-bike business from its EU head office in the Netherlands last May. Has President Eric de Seynes not started selling Yamaha ebikes in the EU?
 

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Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Yamaha is already an official sponsor of the Tour de France, Giro d’Italia and La Vuelta. It’s probably just a matter of time before their ebikes start selling in the EU. I’ve read that they plan on starting in the Netherlands. I’ll post something more concrete when I get updates.
 

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Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Ya, with a motorcycle.
Stefan. Is there a reason you dislike Yamaha’s PAS bicycles/business plan? Even despite Yamaha moving their European OEM e-bike business from Japan to its EU head office in the Netherlands last May, you seem to have a bias against them expanding to the EU market. Are you trying to communicate an aversion to them entering the EU?
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
No. The biggest Yamaha's European market is Giant/Liv/Momentum and Haibike. Yamaha should be afraid of competing with their largest customers.
 

Terry777

Active Member
I wonder what the same market will be worth in say 3 years and then 5 years time... beyond that could be up through the stars!!
 

Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Ya, with a motorcycle.
Stefan. Is there a reason you dislike Yamaha’s PAS bicycles/business plan? Even despite Yamaha moving their European OEM e-bike business from Japan to its EU head office in the Netherlands last May, you seem to have a bias against them expanding to the EU market. Are you trying to communicate an aversion to them entering into the EU?
No. The biggest Yamaha's European market is Giant/Liv/Momentum and Haibike. Yamaha should be afraid of competing with their largest customers.
Yamaha’s annual revenue is $46 Billion. Giant is $2 billion. Don’t you think Yamaha could easily invest $1 billion in R&D (new carbon fiber/batter/motor manufacturing) to compete with any bicycle company?
 

Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
In motorcycles, guitars, e-bike motors, machinery, HVAC and whatnot. Not in e-bikes.
I know, but that doesn’t mean they won’t invest billions in their ebike division if they wanted to. It would be nice to have another carbon fiber manufacturer to compete with Giant on a global scale. They already make their own motor, battery and bike computer. All they need now is a carbon fiber manufacturing company and they could easily compete with Pinarello, Colnago, Bianchi, etc. Their recent financial reports now include their bike business. Is there a reason you would doubt Yamaha could take their ebike business more seriously? Especially now that they moved their ebike HQ from Japan to the Netherlands?
 
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Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
You see, Giant and Haibike might go with Bosch or Shimano or Brose if it's going tough. Haibike have no loyalty.
Now, teach a motorbike dealer work with e-bikes ;)
 

Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
You see, Giant and Haibike might go with Bosch or Shimano or Brose if it's going tough. Haibike have no loyalty.
Now, teach a motorbike dealer work with e-bikes ;)
Yeah, I thought about that. I actually had one of the best customer service experiences at a Yamaha Motorcycle Dealer selling Yamaha ebikes. Their parts department knew exactly what they could and couldn’t get me from Yamaha (the LBS didn’t know specifics like availability of extra batteries, fenders, etc. But, the LBS knew how to work on the bikes better than the Yamaha Dealer. The buying experience was better with Yamaha but the ebike mechanics were better at the LBS so I went with the LBS. if Yamaha had LBS inside their Dealerships, that would be the Nordstrom’s experience in the USA (or in Europe the Harrys of London or the Hermès on rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré in Paris) lol. I’m exaggerating (of course). But you get my point. A lot of bike shops seem nice until you buy the bike and then they’re too busy for questions (at least in the ones I’ve been to). Maybe Yamaha can be a luxury brand in Europe unlike in the USA where it’s the entry level of ebikes.
 
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Akrotiri

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
W
Hello everybody, thank you for accepting me in this community, nice to be here. I need an eMTB in my life and I was hoping you could advise me on what to buy. I live in a mountain forest area with endless steepy trails full of rocks and fallen branches, but also with long, cozy service roads for the fire brigade. I love technical riding and I had tried all kinds of offroad motorcycles, but I kept none of them cause I am a female and these bikes are just all too tall and heavy for me. I also bought a trials bike but it was uncomfortable to ride on trails even with a seat attached because of its geometry. I do have a very cool all mountain bicycle but on steep ascents I have to push it or I move with the speed of a turtle, so I only ride it on specific paths. Anyway, I need an ebike with as much battery as possible to be able to explore even unknown areas for me and ride around for 3 hours. At the same time I want to keep the feeling that I am actually riding a bicycle and enjoy pedaling to get some exercise and feel that I am moving the bicycle myself, at least partly. I explored the option of turning my own MTB to an ebike with a Bafang M620 and a 52V21Amp battery, but it is impossible to place the battery on the frame and I will not carry it on my back. I asked around about mainstream ebikes (with Shimano, Bosch, etc motors at 80nm torque) and according to what I have been reading they just seem too weak for what I want them to do, so I am definetely looking at Bafang 1000W - either by bying an allmountain bike that the battery is easy to fit on and doing the coversion myself (with the BBSHD probably), or by buying a bike with the M620 already fit on. Now, I live in Europe so I can forget about importing parts or bikes from China or USA, because of EU antidumping measures. There are a very few bike manufacturers in Europe with the Bafang M620, they offer it with a 650Wh battery (not that huge) but the bikes look awesome and are light and agile, about 25 kg or 55 pounds. I also found some heavy bikes in Eurpe with M620 at around 34 kg or 75 pounds that will ride for ever because the battery is huge (they have a special frame to accomodate it), but this means they are quite heavy and I am not sure if they will still feel like a bicycle or rather as a lightweight electric enduro motorcycle, or like something that is neither a bicycle, nor a motorcycle. The problem is, these toys cost a fortune, like I really have to save money to buy them, and I can't just keep them all or try them all and decide, and they are not even around the place, like they will be shipped from another country and once I have made my decision and placed the order I can't take it back. So based on this info (and thank you for reading so far :)), what would you suggest I should buy? When does a bicycle stop being a bicycle and becomes an electric motorcycle? And for those of you that have ebikes, especially heavy and powerful ones, do you still enjoy pedaling and getting a good exercise if you adjust the power of pedal assist? Thank you so much!
Hi zoumerela and welcome to the forums.

There are several misconceptions about the Bosch, Yamaha, Brose and shimano motors. The most inaccurate being that their underpowered. Their not perfect but certainly all better than bafang. If price isn’t a problem I would recommend looking to buy the more mainstream motors for an emtb. You will not be wanting more power I can promise you.

Also, you will be supported with maintenance and warranty from the shop you purchase it from when you need repairs and maintenance or warranty. You can’t get that with bafang.

Cube, Moustache, and Orbea are very well represented in Greece and all offer very good emtbs. Trek also has several stores in Attica but their best emtbs start at a higher price than most. If money isn’t a concern you would be making a better choice going that route.

We are the most mountainous country in Europe and the constant climbing puts tremendous strain on ebike motors. Only 31% of the island I live on is flat, the rest all hills, inclines, mountain roads and rocky trails. I’m usually in 1-2-3 gear for most of my rides. Together with the long hot summers I wouldn’t feel confident with a bafang motor. In my opinion it simply wouldn’t last.

Where in Greece are you located? I’ll recommend some stores in your prefecture.
 
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Akrotiri

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
No problem. Just checked. There’s a few threads on the forum already on the Frey bikes. Just type “Frey” into the search bar.
I’d also listen to what Stefan and the group has to say. LOADS of real world knowledge and experience there for free!
👍
Greece customs will clobber him in import & duty taxes. Doesn’t matter what Frey says or what he pays them beforehand , Greek customs is a whole different animal.
 

zoumerela

New Member
Region
Europe
W

Hi zoumerela and welcome to the forums.

There are several misconceptions about the Bosch, Yamaha, Brose and shimano motors. The most inaccurate being that their underpowered. Their not perfect but certainly all better than bafang. If price isn’t a problem I would recommend looking to buy the more mainstream motors for an emtb. You will not be wanting more power I can promise you.

Also, you will be supported with maintenance and warranty from the shop you purchase it from when you need repairs and maintenance or warranty. You can’t get that with bafang.

Cube, Moustache, and Orbea are very well represented in Greece and all offer very good emtbs. Trek also has several stores in Attica but their best emtbs start at a higher price than most. If money isn’t a concern you would be making a better choice going that route.

We are the most mountainous country in Europe and the constant climbing puts tremendous strain on ebike motors. Only 31% of the island I live on is flat, the rest all hills, inclines, mountain roads and rocky trails. I’m usually in 1-2-3 gear for most of my rides. Together with the long hot summers I wouldn’t feel confident with a bafang motor. In my opinion it simply wouldn’t last.

Where in Greece are you located? I’ll recommend some stores in your prefecture.

Thanks for the advice. I really do not know what to do, I wish I could test ride both a Bafang monster bike and a light weight Bosch bike for a month in my area to decide... Price is a problem actually and if I do not do my own conversion whatever I buy is already expensive enough. But if I do buy a mainstream bike I found a cube that is more or less in my budget and I can also easily find a dealer in my area.
 

skritikos

Member
Region
Europe
City
Athens, Greece
It's all about USABLE power and smoothness. No add-on system will ever reach the completeness of a system designed to work as a whole from a single serious manufacturer.
They have control over every motor aspect and their close bicycle manufacturers work on frame geometry, weight distribution, etc. So the eBike experience is a total system, not just a bolt-on afterthought.

Cheaper is one thing, quality as a system is another. This is a rule I follow on almost every option I have in my life. Go with the better one if you can. More quality, more enjoyment, more long time support.
Its a different thing if you have unlimited time and love to tinker with your tools. A bolt-on system can be a nice winter project. But for MTB (and even more full-suspension) use, Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha (alphabetical order) would always be my top options.

@zoumerela where do you live? There is a nice Cube dealer in my area who is a crazy eMTB rider himself too. He organizes some demo rides some points (at least before the Covid era).