Rad law suit

[Art Deco]

At the peek of the lockdown a single mom ordered her grossly obese 10-year old an new $599 junk electric bike. She brought it to me for assembly. I disabled the throttle by using a set screw so the kid would have to pedal to get assistance. I told her about this as a condition for assembly. She removed the screw by the third week because the kid whined. Putting kids on motorcycles in the streets is not a good idea in my opinion regardless of their power source. And it does not matter if they have pedals like a T-rex has arms. It is still a motorcycle functionally. In another thread a 300 plus pound guy put a 1200 watt front hub on his bike and wrecked the fork. He wanted a cheep fix. I showed pictures of both Newton and Darwin. Sometimes they team up.

Gee neither of those guys have twitter accounts ...

 

[m@Robertson]

So let me see if I have this correct. Going back to your post #127, you are saying a cable operated disc brake can't be trusted to stop an e-bike?

I didn't say that. This is what I was getting at by trying too hard. Go back and read it again and next time don't mischaracterize what I said so grossly it bears no resemblance to the original post, which is still plainly visible.

That's an opinion, and I've offered first hand experience indicating you might not be as correct as you think you are......

Again you are working too hard to paper over your favorite team's track record.

Respectfully, I'm wondering who is calling the kettle black......

I tried to be gentle about this but you're being a dick about it so go play by yourself. Nobody needs me to help spot the fanboy.

 

[m@Robertson]

That doesn't appear to be happening in coastal San Diego County WRT kids on ebikes in the wild. Or if it is, it's grossly ineffective.

How would you address that, practically speaking?

Agreed, but the solution would not come from the government. Ebikes are undergoing a shift from a niche product to a general-population product. Thats why we are seeing people who know nothing about these bikes running up against figurative and literal brick walls. All they know is the kind of bikes they were brought up with. Thats how someone can say that a bike that needs brake maintenance every two weeks is a ridiculous thing. It isn't unless you are used to coaster-brake Schwinns on neighborhood rides around the block. This level of ignorance would never happen in a culture like the EU that values quality (not counting the Far East as, well, they don't). But here in the USA, where bikes are children's toys, much of the population thinks no more of them than that... and that coupled with unscrupulous manufacturers who sell cheap stuff creates the problem.

So, it goes back to what I said earlier. The problem solves itself with product liability lawsuits and big payouts. People die here and there. Its messy, but it does not create a world where your government is constantly reaching for a hammer to nail down every nail it sees sticking up. And what I am describing is not really anything new. This is how our system already works.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

AHicks said:
So let me see if I have this correct. Going back to your post #127, you are saying a cable operated disc brake can't be trusted to stop an e-bike?

I didn't say that. This is what I was getting at by trying too hard. Go back and read it again and next time don't mischaracterize what I said so grossly it bears no resemblance to the original post, which is still plainly visible.

How is what you said much different? You said, "A bike with that duty cycle is stupidly underpowered brakewise as it sits."

I have a RadRover and have plenty of experience with its brakes and with stopping the bike. I can tell you first hand that it is simply not underpowered brakewise.

TT

 

[m@Robertson]

AHicks said:
So let me see if I have this correct. Going back to your post #127, you are saying a cable operated disc brake can't be trusted to stop an e-bike?

How is what you said much different? You said, "A bike with that duty cycle is stupidly underpowered brakewise as it sits."

I have a RadRover and have plenty of experience with its brakes and with stopping the bike. I can tell you first hand that it is simply not underpowered brakewise.

TT

Read back a bit - just a couple of posts - where I laid out specifically the duty cycle and other challenges a RadRunner has to overcome. Its very, very different from the characterization of 'an ebike' that was falsely attributed to me

And also don't make the mistake of falling for the other piece of bait that was laid out above. I never said cabled brakes don't work (at least I hope not... I haven't gone back and checked). What they do not do is work for very long without adjustment. Stretched cables in particular. A consumer who thinks about bikes as children's toys and measures bikes by that yardstick is not going to understand the maintenance cycle needed that is inherent to cabled brakes and absent with hydros, where you essentially just change the pads when they wear out and nothing more.

That big article (in Bicycling?) quoted people specifically on the maintenance issue and their lack of understanding of same.

This same issue happened constantly in the Sondors user group and didn't go away until they went to hydros on their bikes. But when they did, it disappeared. Again... this is not a Rad problem it is a DTC market channel problem happening across many sellers.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

My own experience with mechanical disk brakes is that you should expect to have to give the barrel adjusters a quarter turn or so every two weeks. I don't know if that counts as "maintenance" or not. The other observation I'd make is that depending on where you ride, nearly all e-bikes have seriously inadequate brakes and brake rotors. That applies to hydraulic as well as mechanical brakes. Like I said in a previous post, there are mechanical brakes out there that are just as good as hydraulics.

The earlier model Rad bikes had adequate brakes, I did try out a later model (Rad Rover) last summer and wasn't as impressed with the newer brakes.

 

[m@Robertson]

You have to get down more than halfway thru this article but the subject of inadequate brakes gets quite a bit of attention. There's a lot more than what I quote below.

E-Bikes Are Booming—And Virtually Unregulated. Will This Lawsuit Make Them Safer?

Twelve-year-old Molly Steinsapir crashed onto the pavement from a Rad Power e-bike and never woke up. With a poorly regulated e-bike industry, who is responsible when a child dies?

www.bicycling.com

... Holland says that in his most recent exchange with Rad customer service, the rep emailed him that it is “not uncommon” for owners to adjust their brakes “every couple of hundred miles or so.” Which in his case would be every few weeks. “That’s totally unreasonable,” he says, adding that the same rep urged him not to explore swapping out the mechanical disc brakes on the bike for hydraulic brakes for safety reasons. “I found that hilarious.”

"totally unreasonable" is not the result you'd see from regular ebike owners with cabled brakes. Two weeks sounds about right. It mirrors the complaints I heard over and over in the Sondors group. which was the same deal: Big, heavy fast bike with cabled brakes. Pads fine. Rotors fine. Cables stretch and the levers go down to the bars. Stops fine after cables adjusted (after the barrel runs out of travel you loosen the nut and pull the cable etc. etc.

The author of this article points out he owns two RadRunners himself. I thought he approached this topic fairly and openly; not as a fanboy. This is his personal experience with one of his two RadRunners:

... Roughly a month after my younger son got his RadRunner, he mentioned that the brakes weren’t working so well. I went out to the garage and discovered that I could easily squeeze both brake levers all the way to the handlebar grips—meaning the brakes weren’t working at all. But I know that the cables on new bikes can stretch, so I did some googling and watched a couple of very useful YouTube maintenance videos that Rad Power had produced. Then I made a few adjustments to get the disc brakes back in seemingly perfect working order. But a couple of weeks later, I saw my son dragging his sneakers on the ground to help stop the bike and found that the brakes were once again useless.

 

[mschwett]

…
"totally unreasonable" is not the result you'd see from regular ebike owners with cabled brakes. Two weeks sounds about right. It mirrors the complaints I heard over and over in the Sondors group. which was the same deal: Big, heavy fast bike with cabled brakes. Pads fine. Rotors fine. Cables stretch and the levers go down to the bars. Stops fine after cables adjusted (after the barrel runs out of travel you loosen the nut and pull the cable etc. etc.

The author of this article points out he owns two RadRunners himself. I thought he approached this topic fairly and openly; not as a fanboy.

i don’t think this had anything to do with the fatal crash, but if a bike needs it’s brakes adjusted every few hundred miles, it ought to say so in giant letters on the packaging, manual, a little tag on the brakes when new, etc. that is a ludicrously short service interval, no matter how easy the service is.

i thought my 2,500 mile tires and chains were bad!

 

[Art Deco]

When I was younger and riding a Raleigh 10 speed, the LBS had a poster reminding us of the ABC check (air,brakes,chain) before every ride. I don't see anything like that at an LBS nowadays, and people don't know how to check or even that they should check.

 

[indianajo]

My own experience with mechanical disk brakes is that you should expect to have to give the barrel adjusters a quarter turn or so every two weeks.

The tektro cable pull brakes on my 2018 yuba bodaboda need the pad turned in a click or two about every 1000 miles. I don't ever adjust the cables. New pads front @ ~6000 miles. I carry groceries & ag supplies, repair parts, water, on 12-15% grades, up to 330 lb gross. If a deer jumps out I expect to stop in 25' from 25 mph. The disks are only 160 mm. I've never worn one in 10000 miles.
The cables yuba installed have much less stretch that the **** grey metal cables installed on my predecessor Pacific Quantum MTB & Diamondback MTB's. If you replace a cable buy clarks or jaguar slick stainless cable.

 

[Asher]

i don’t think this had anything to do with the fatal crash, but if a bike needs it’s brakes adjusted every few hundred miles, it ought to say so in giant letters on the packaging, manual, a little tag on the brakes when new, etc. that is a ludicrously short service interval, no matter how easy the service is.

i thought my 2,500 mile tires and chains were bad!

And that disclosure would completely undermine Rad's whole marketing pitch of carefree bikes for casual riders.

Aside from pumping tires monthly and charging a battery ~weekly, expecting any technical routine maintenance on a mass marketed bike is just a recipe for disaster. I can't really think of a product that requires professional outside maintenance more than every 6 months, and that's for a car which the average buyer uses way more than what's often a recreational bicycle.

When I was younger and riding a Raleigh 10 speed, the LBS had a poster reminding us of the ABC check (air,brakes,chain) before every ride. I don't see anything like that at an LBS nowadays, and people don't know how to check or even that they should check.

The problem is not the checking or the lack of checking, so much as it is the extremely short time interval between maintenance needed. If you can go 2 years or 2500 miles between brake pads, you've got a huge 6 months / 500 mile replacement window. Which is enough time for people to catch issues and bring it in for service. Not two weeks/ 100 miles.

Anyhow, it seems like Rad has permanently lost it's lead position in the DTC ebike market to a raft of rivals with better value and better records, and Rad's issues are a fairly effective warning to the industry at large, for the visible brands anyway (ie not the fly by night or garage operations).

 

[AHicks]

I didn't say that. This is what I was getting at by trying too hard. Go back and read it again and next time don't mischaracterize what I said so grossly it bears no resemblance to the original post, which is still plainly visible.
Again you are working too hard to paper over your favorite team's track record.
I tried to be gentle about this but you're being a dick about it so go play by yourself. Nobody needs me to help spot the fanboy.

Holy Cow....
Uncalled for my friend, for ANY reason. A picture perfect example of something YOU were whining about in an earlier post not long ago - the degradation of the forum's content (would be nice if you'd at least TRY to play by your own rules/expectations for others). There is NEVER any excuse to get personal with a reply here, or any other forum for that matter. It's a sign of ignorance, among other things..... and darn sure not going to generate any respect for anything you might have to say/thoughts you may want to share in the future.

Why not just agree to disagree and move on? Are people not allowed to disagree with you in your presence? Sheesh!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

i don’t think this had anything to do with the fatal crash, but if a bike needs it’s brakes adjusted every few hundred miles, it ought to say so in giant letters on the packaging, manual, a little tag on the brakes when new, etc. that is a ludicrously short service interval, no matter how easy the service is.

I agree if there is a requirement to do something with tools. But I think if you need to tighten the barrel adjusters every few hundred miles that isn't really too bad. And I typically run out of room on the barrel adjusters about the time I need to replace the pads anyway.

I've noticed that some really inexpensive mass-market bikes with mechanical disk brakes don't have tool-free (barrel) adjusters. One friend I know bought herself a cheap no-name e-bike (from Costco or some other big box store, I think). Her local bike shop would only work on the bike on the condition she let them immediately replace and upgrade the brakes, because they considered the brakes that came with the bike to be unsafe and inappropriate for the weight of the bike. That cost over $200 on a bike that (I think) didn't cost more than $400 at the store.

Cheapest is rarely least expensive.

 

[Asher]

I agree if there is a requirement to do something with tools. But I think if you need to tighten the barrel adjusters every few hundred miles that isn't really too bad. And I typically run out of room on the barrel adjusters about the time I need to replace the pads anyway.

I've noticed that some really inexpensive mass-market bikes with mechanical disk brakes don't have tool-free (barrel) adjusters. One friend I know bought herself a cheap no-name e-bike (from Costco or some other big box store, I think). Her local bike shop would only work on the bike on the condition she let them immediately replace and upgrade the brakes, because they considered the brakes that came with the bike to be unsafe and inappropriate for the weight of the bike. That cost over $200 on a bike that (I think) didn't cost more than $400 at the store.

Cheapest is rarely least expensive.

It's pretty shocking and bizarre that Costco would never repeatedly stock an appliance of any other kind that was that poorly built, but for bikes (and hoverboards etc), they simply don't care. But it's been going on for decades.

 

[smorgasbord]

Anyhow, it seems like Rad has permanently lost it's lead position in the DTC ebike market to a raft of rivals with better value and better records, and Rad's issues are a fairly effective warning to the industry at large, for the visible brands anyway (ie not the fly by night or garage operations).

Just curious - do you have pointers to market share stats, or is "seems like" the operative phrase?

I couldn't find anything definitive, just these:

NBDA Bicycle Buying 2021 Consumer Research Study Identifies a New DTC Channel of Trade – The 20-Inch Urban eBike

Irvine, CA (March 1, 2022) – Heather Mason, President of the National Bicycle Dealers Association (NBDA), announced today that the Bicycle Buying 2021 Consumer Research Study has identified a new style of bike aggressively marketed and sold by DTC trade and coming soon to a retailer near you...

www.bicycleretailer.com

Electric Bike Market Size to Grow Worth USD 92.19 Billion at a CAGR of 12.6% by 2029 | Fortune Business Insights

According to Fortune Business Insights, the global electric bike market size is projected to grow from USD 35.69 billion in 2021 to USD 92.19 billion in...

www.globenewswire.com

List of Direct to Consumer (DTC) Bike Brands - mr. MAMIL

A list of all direct to consumer bike brands.

mrmamil.com

 

[Asher]

Just curious - do you have pointers to market share stats, or is "seems like" the operative phrase?

I couldn't find anything definitive, just these:

NBDA Bicycle Buying 2021 Consumer Research Study Identifies a New DTC Channel of Trade – The 20-Inch Urban eBike

Irvine, CA (March 1, 2022) – Heather Mason, President of the National Bicycle Dealers Association (NBDA), announced today that the Bicycle Buying 2021 Consumer Research Study has identified a new style of bike aggressively marketed and sold by DTC trade and coming soon to a retailer near you...

www.bicycleretailer.com

Electric Bike Market Size to Grow Worth USD 92.19 Billion at a CAGR of 12.6% by 2029 | Fortune Business Insights

According to Fortune Business Insights, the global electric bike market size is projected to grow from USD 35.69 billion in 2021 to USD 92.19 billion in...

www.globenewswire.com

List of Direct to Consumer (DTC) Bike Brands - mr. MAMIL

A list of all direct to consumer bike brands.

mrmamil.com

No I have no real numbers.

But there is:
Bad press from this lawsuit and other rider incidents
Safety recall(s?)
Higher prices on new models (trike, RadRunner 3), especially compared to rivals like Lectric
Aventon increasing it's retail footprint
Rivals now selling cargo bikes
Rad cutting costs, including marketing spending it used to goose revenue
Zero Class 3 offerings when rivals are increasingly fully or heavily Class 3 (Aventon, Ride1Up, Lectric)


That's a lot of headwinds

 

[m@Robertson]

Why not just agree to disagree and move on? Are people not allowed to disagree with you in your presence? Sheesh!

I went out of my way to discuss the particulars only. Look to yourself and the snotty tone you set. Don't cry when you get the reaction you created.


Thats enough of that.

 

[tomjasz]

Sorry for the following poor syntax and bather. One finger posting a the smallest iPhone currently sold is an editing nightmare. You’ve been warned…

Don't understand the issue with cable brakes. I rode a hydraulic disk-braked big Honda for 75K miles around LA as sole transportation for years as a young man. Yeah, the hydraulic brake is silky smooth. But our ebike brakes work great with cables. One can easily lock up the wheels--what more do you want?

We’re not apples to apples here. Efficiency has a lot to do with weight, speed, and hard braking performance. My 60LB 250W folder with very good rim brakes and pads at 15MPH could provide a panic sop distance better than budget hydro.

In my evolving opinion only testing real panic stop distance offers me any confidence.

Who does that? It’s taught me to trust the tape not opinions.

FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE

I’m having a hard time with my use of that high ground stance. I’ve long called my 26” rims one big disk. My best quality Tektro rim brakes with Koolstop eBike pads are amazingly effective.

Then I did a fat bike build with b grade mechanical discs and scared myself. Well adjusted they had a long panic stop distance. Far longer than the Tekto/KoolStop rim brakes. A customer purchased a few sets of best quality mechanic disc sets and they weren’t a good match for his high speed builds and two sets were gifted to me. A huge improvement and greatly improved braking distances. Up to 20MPH they did seem efficient. But panic stop exercise like MSF course drill revealed again on a 65LB bike with 750W max motor sub 20 they were about equal. A more recent build again 350W max output 500W with Magura 4 piston were amazing efficient. But again on a 65LB build they weren’t worth the investment. On a BBSHD Build at 30-34MPH I was only happy with the feel of hydro discs.

Often I’m finding my opinion is not worth the energy to type a defense.
There’s no on size fits all. Speed, torque, and high power need those H D brakes. But dumb down the speed and do s round of panic stops and it’s important to me to set my opinion aside and actually test distances. More than once my opinion was more conjecture than provable performance.

I’m no longer willing to fuss with these opinions unless it’s apples to apples performance comparisons.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

No I have no real numbers.

You aren't alone. There aren't any real numbers that are publicly shared about the number of e-bikes sold that I would consider trustworthy.

PR sales numbers from companies that aren't publicly traded are seldom accurate and unlikely to be comparable with other companies' PR sales numbers.

 

[PedalUma]

I am going back to the guitar analogy. If you are going to play it, know how to tune it. Good mechanical cables with good housings are 4.75 times more expensive then cheap ones. $35 vs $8 for a set per wheel. Cheap bikes use $2 cables. The high end slick, stainless cables don't stretch much, and with high end housings they are highly responsive, fast acting, like hydro. I rode a bike today with high end Bontreger Elite stainless cables in Juagwire housings lined with gun oil. The extra large rim pads have 1.5 mm of clearance. That bike locks it up if needed. And what I did was eat a burger between storms at this place that is so good. Today I tried a Buttermilk fried chicken burger. I have had the seared Ahi with wasabi mayo and the Free-range beef. The fries are skin on. My point is that simple things can be very good if done right.