Rad Power Raises Prices for some models

Timpo

Well-Known Member
This year is not a normal one. They are not usually backordered this late in the year. I doubt they will be this backordered this time next year.
I get what you are saying... but if they were to charge $1700 for the same thing they used to charge $1500 for, (and it's not caused by a tariff issue) they are getting closer to the "let's just buy one fully assembled from a local bike shop, that I can test ride and that can also immediately deal with any issues" mentality. I've met people with new Ebikes on the trails who knew about Rad but didn't want to screw around with having one shipped and having to assemble it.

Also, if you start going higher in price without apparent value for the consumer, there are going to be a lot of people turned off. Especially the internet researcher type... because they would see things like... Rad's 750 vs. true 750w motor. And learn about Rad's absurd upcharges on shipping accessories and parts. (Wanna buy 6 sets of replacement brake pads that weigh less than a pound? $27 in shipping)

And I don't say this because I don't like Rad. We've bought 4 of them this year. I say this because I like Rad.

Just my 2 cents.
Sorry I didn't quite understand what you meant by that.

Did you mean like, people would rather buy an ebike from local bike store if Rad Power raises the price too high?
 

Adrian.s

Member
Not sure theres alot of ebikes on market,i picked up a radmission 1499$ plus helmet,fenders, kickstand,stickers +tax 2000$ thats expensive i couldnt find a shop with ebikes in Montreal under 4-5000 ,i think market will go through roof others raised their prices too
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Not sure theres alot of ebikes on market,i picked up a radmission 1499$ plus helmet,fenders, kickstand,stickers +tax 2000$ thats expensive i couldnt find a shop with ebikes in Montreal under 4-5000 ,i think market will go through roof others raised their prices too
Are you gonna do anything to your RadMission?
 
D

Deleted member 4210

Guest
My vote- so they can drop the prices for a big Black Friday sale.....

Other than that, it's mostly about supply and demand. It would be no surprise here if other sellers followed suit. With many bike models on back order for months, safe bet there are internal RAD people asking why they shouldn't be asking for a little more money....

It would be different if they were sitting on a 90 day supply. My thought anyway, FWIW. -Al
Price increases are due to Severe component shortages caused by a) more and more new brands entering the market b) battery supply shortages caused by batteries being used in so many more applications c) this years covid impact, and factories going completely under, not just temporarily shutting down during lockdowns (too much debt that many were operating under despite the strong demand, d) Supplier QUALITY in scarce supply so a number of ebike firms like Rad, are learning the hard way they just cant source on price alone, so they are stepping up their scrutiny on supplier quality, which are fewer and farer between as the industry is still young. The really good suppliers on the non-regular bike components (i.e. controllers, throttles, displays, sensors, cables, etc) aren't used to these massive quantities (like a Shimano is for derailleurs) , so they have relatively slow ramp up times to meet the quickly increasing sales of these larger ebike firms who are suddenly selling $100's of millions in ebikes, not just $10's of millions annually. Still very young ebike firms (which includes Rad, Sonders, and pretty much 80% of the brands out there), are super inexperienced when it comes to scaling and handling huge volumes of sales, component sourcing, or managing their supply chain, as compared to massive multi-billion dollar firms who have been around for decades like a Yamaha, or Trek, or Giant, so they dont even know what they dont know about how to handle the demand increases, or supply chain quality, so they arent even knowing how to ask the right questions. This will continue for some time, as the ebike industry 'graduates' from early adopter phase to early mainstream (where we are now), and then into mainstream. Give it another 10 years before lots of these firms are weeded out by their own ignorance, and it wont be lack of demand that puts them under, or lack of sales, but NOT knowing how to scale and how to source and manage both their own supply chain, and then their demand side consumer management and after the sale support. And you dont gain that by hiring people who are 'smart' in certain areas, as a lot of it is institutional knowledge and entire systems, that no one person is capable of having the experience or years of experience individually to comprehend these systems the big boys put in place over decades in other product venues.

So all in all, not surprised whatsoever, by Rad increasing prices, (and doing so only slightly) and many more brands are already planning for those increases for their 2021 model line ups. Ebike firms with ebikes mostly priced below $1500 are going to learn its not profitable or sustainable to keep their prices that low, and soon you will see firms like Rad offering fewer and fewer models below the $2000 price point, and having many more models above $2000. You can't build, sell, and have enough profit AND a quality ebike below the $1000 price point, nor really cant do it for very long below the $1500 price point, before quality and warranty issues really catch up with you, and burn you badly. But keeping with Rad as an example, they cannot just over night bump their prices up over $2000, since their entire model is based on very low first price, with a really generic frame, and really basic electronics and so on. So you will see content creep (slowly improving components), then some price creep, and then a little more options creep, all in an upward trend toward where brands like IGO, Magnum, and Surface are already at. (i.e. low $2000's). Look at where Sondors was just a few short years ago with all their models below $800, and now most are above $1500, as one example of many who have learned the hard way, below $1000 is a steep money losing proposition. (i.e. turn a large fortune into a very small one)
 
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Urban Coyote

Member
Region
Canada
City
Burlington
Price increases are due to Severe component shortages caused by a) more and more new brands entering the market b) battery supply shortages caused by batteries being used in so many more applications c) this years covid impact, and factories going completely under, not just temporarily shutting down during lockdowns (too much debt that many were operating under despite the strong demand, d) Supplier QUALITY in scarce supply so a number of ebike firms like Rad, are learning the hard way they just cant source on price alone, so they are stepping up their scrutiny on supplier quality, which are fewer and farer between as the industry is still young. The really good suppliers on the non-regular bike components (i.e. controllers, throttles, displays, sensors, cables, etc) aren't used to these massive quantities (like a Shimano is for derailleurs) , so they have relatively slow ramp up times to meet the quickly increasing sales of these larger ebike firms who are suddenly selling $100's of millions in ebikes, not just $10's of millions annually. Still very young ebike firms (which includes Rad, Sonders, and pretty much 80% of the brands out there), are super inexperienced when it comes to scaling and handling huge volumes of sales, component sourcing, or managing their supply chain, as compared to massive multi-billion dollar firms who have been around for decades like a Yamaha, or Trek, or Giant, so they dont even know what they dont know about how to handle the demand increases, or supply chain quality, so they arent even knowing how to ask the right questions. This will continue for some time, as the ebike industry 'graduates' from early adopter phase to early mainstream (where we are now), and then into mainstream. Give it another 10 years before lots of these firms are weeded out by their own ignorance, and it wont be lack of demand that puts them under, or lack of sales, but NOT knowing how to scale and how to source and manage both their own supply chain, and then their demand side consumer management and after the sale support. And you dont gain that by hiring people who are 'smart' in certain areas, as a lot of it is institutional knowledge and entire systems, that no one person is capable of having the experience or years of experience individually to comprehend these systems the big boys put in place over decades in other product venues.

So all in all, not surprised whatsoever, by Rad increasing prices, (and doing so only slightly) and many more brands are already planning for those increases for their 2021 model line ups. Ebike firms with ebikes mostly priced below $1500 are going to learn its not profitable or sustainable to keep their prices that low, and soon you will see firms like Rad offering fewer and fewer models below the $2000 price point, and having many more models above $2000. You can't build, sell, and have enough profit AND a quality ebike below the $1000 price point, nor really cant do it for very long below the $1500 price point, before quality and warranty issues really catch up with you, and burn you badly. But keeping with Rad as an example, they cannot just over night bump their prices up over $2000, since their entire model is based on very low first price, with a really generic frame, and really basic electronics and so on. So you will see content creep (slowly improving components), then some price creep, and then a little more options creep, all in an upward trend toward where brands like IGO, Magnum, and Surface are already at. (i.e. low $2000's). Look at where Sondors was just a few short years ago with all their models below $800, and now most are above $1500, as one example of many who have learned the hard way, below $1000 is a steep money losing proposition. (i.e. turn a large fortune into a very small one)
Thank you for that analysis, Mike. It is a lot more complex than I. and probably most people, realize. I read an interview with Mike Radenbaugh recently and he said he goes to bed every night with his head just spinning. No wonder! I do hope Rad does well, and doesn’t just become another large corporation solely motivated by profit. Rad does seem like a different kind of company that is idealistic about changing the car culture, with all the environmental and other damage it causes, by making ebikes that are affordable for most people.
I’m so happy with my new Rover. I don’t know how they can sell it for such a reasonable price, compared to all the other more expensive ebikes out there. I don’t understand why anyone would pay 2 or 3 times more when Rad offers such great bikes for so much less. Even if they have to start increasing their prices, as you point out, I hope they can maintain their core values.
 
D

Deleted member 4210

Guest
This year is not a normal one. They are not usually backordered this late in the year. I doubt they will be this backordered this time next year.

This year is not a normal one. They are not usually backordered this late in the year. I doubt they will be this backordered this time next year.
I get what you are saying... but if they were to charge $1700 for the same thing they used to charge $1500 for, (and it's not caused by a tariff issue) they are getting closer to the "let's just buy one fully assembled from a local bike shop, that I can test ride and that can also immediately deal with any issues" mentality. I've met people with new Ebikes on the trails who knew about Rad but didn't want to screw around with having one shipped and having to assemble it.

Also, if you start going higher in price without apparent value for the consumer, there are going to be a lot of people turned off. Especially the internet researcher type... because they would see things like... Rad's 750 vs. true 750w motor. And learn about Rad's absurd upcharges on shipping accessories and parts. (Wanna buy 6 sets of replacement brake pads that weigh less than a pound? $27 in shipping)

And I don't say this because I don't like Rad. We've bought 4 of them this year. I say this because I like Rad.

Just my 2 cents.
Next year will be far worse in terms of back orders and shortages. I listed many reasons in my prior post, but so many more people are now finding out about ebikes due to this massive surge this year catalyzed by the effects of the lockdowns and Covid 19. the ebike industry has been right near that inflection point of going from early adopter to early mainstream, and the consensus is its JUMPED that chasm big time, right into the early mainstream phase, where year over year growth will really continue to outpace anything we have seen for the past 5 years here in the US. It was bound to happen, but typically you dont see such an acceleration. Many ebike brands saw surges of 300 to 600%, which is unprecedented for any industry or early adopter technology. A number of my suppliers all report similar sentiments, based on what they are getting from their supply chain people, which is that next year is going to be REALLY TOUGH, even if the demand merely stayed flat. Factories for all components, just are not capable of ramping up much more than they already had been, and that can take anywhere from 1 to 2 years to have a material increase in output. The bottleneck right now as we speak, are the major suppliers like Shimano and Tektro, and even at this late juncture in a season where things usually slow down, ebike deliveries are being delayed nearly 60 to 90 days by the fundamental components such as Shimano's derailleurs, and Tektro's hydraulic brakes. There are NO backups to these vendors, and they are supplying to the bike industry which has seen and continues to see an unprecedented back log and surge in demand that is just not letting up. Many regular bike shops, who carried primary brands, ran out of bikes by May or June, and basically were 'hosed' for the rest of the season, as bike ordering is always months to a year in advance and there is just no extra allocation available in a typical season. So with 300 to 600% this year in ebikes, and regular bike brands seeing 100 to 300% increases, the industry is in a precarious supply and demand imbalance that wont resolve itself over night.

If you were one of those bike shops who ran out of bikes, and an owner who realizes you could have sold far more, and made way more in earnings, then you can bet your 'first born', these owners will NOT be caught short again in 2021. Especially since there are no signs of a let up in bike or ebike demand, and many bike shops were actually scavenging for used bikes on line, so they could buy them, re-condition them, and sell them so they would have more than just relying on service and repairs. Many big players including Trek, and Specialized have been telling their dealers there wont be deliveries until April 2021. Thats actually way too late, so dealers are scrambling like there is no tomorrow, and calling up new brands they have never before considered until now, JUST so they can have any bikes for next season. You need bikes and ebikes in inventory by February at the latest in any regular season, or its slim pickin's. This year a whole lot of the bike and ebike industry got caught with their pants down big time. In fact many on line ebike players were so screwed, they dropped their prices just to get any pre-orders they could to keep cash flowing in. Espin is one of those as was Qualiports, just to name a couple out of at least 3 dozen others who had to resort to these very desperate tactics. Think about it. That occurred, and they were in financial trouble, because of HIGH demand, and basically they had no supply in time for what the needs were. So buyers went elsewhere. Bet none of you considered that could happen, and thought all these brands were 'fat,dumb,and happy' with all the demand. 2020 will be a massive shake out year, where many of these just wont be able to navigate or compete with others for their spots in their shared factory lines, so yes prices will be going up, and the desperate will not be making much margin, even with price hikes, because they screwed themselves here in 2020, by not building their business properly or being diversified. Up to now, it was 'easy' to be an ebike vendor. Not so much anymore. barriers went up at least 5 fold, due to the market dynamics that happened this year. I'd estimate at least 30 out of over 130 brands will cease to exist in 2021. I could be wrong of course, but its not a pretty scene in the bike and ebike supply chain right now. Lots of battles going on for sheer survival.
 
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sc00ter

Active Member
If you want a Rad brand bike order it now. If you wait on ordering because of a $100 price increase you'll just be missing out on riding for a longer time. Or you can go to your local ebike selling store and pay much more and ride on the same day. Rad Power isn't the only seller that fluctuates prices for mysterious reasons.
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
RadMission = $1099
RadWagon 4 = $1699
RadRover 5 (& step thru) = $1599
Since we are near the end of their normal model year, I wonder why.
Surely we all support the capitalistic system that has given us all our wonderful toys of every sort. Given present day demand for ebikes Rad Power would indeed be very foolish if they did not raise prices. That they did not raise them further is a testament to the system itself.
 
Sorry I didn't quite understand what you meant by that.

Did you mean like, people would rather buy an ebike from local bike store if Rad Power raises the price too high?

Yeah, that's what I meant. I've seen that mentality many times. In January I spent $1500 sight unseen with no test ride. For many people, that can be a real hard sell.

Yesterday I rode 39.3 miles on a popular trail with lots of traffic. In that time I was stopped 6 times by people asking about Ebikes. (one couple was funny because they stopped me early in my ride, then I rode to the end of the trail and headed back and they stopped me again on way back when I passed by them again. lol) I gave them the Ebike spiel and all the info on Rad but in over 1700 miles this year, and dozens of conversations with strangers, some people are very weary about ordering something like that online. The lower price helps some people do that. If you raise the price too much, there are many people who'd rather just buy at a local store who can also help with any issues.
 
Price increases are due to Severe component shortages caused by a) more and more new brands entering the market b) battery supply shortages caused by batteries being used in so many more applications c) this years covid impact, and factories going completely under, not just temporarily shutting down during lockdowns (too much debt that many were operating under despite the strong demand, d) Supplier QUALITY in scarce supply so a number of ebike firms like Rad, are learning the hard way they just cant source on price alone, so they are stepping up their scrutiny on supplier quality, which are fewer and farer between as the industry is still young. The really good suppliers on the non-regular bike components (i.e. controllers, throttles, displays, sensors, cables, etc) aren't used to these massive quantities (like a Shimano is for derailleurs) , so they have relatively slow ramp up times to meet the quickly increasing sales of these larger ebike firms who are suddenly selling $100's of millions in ebikes, not just $10's of millions annually. Still very young ebike firms (which includes Rad, Sonders, and pretty much 80% of the brands out there), are super inexperienced when it comes to scaling and handling huge volumes of sales, component sourcing, or managing their supply chain, as compared to massive multi-billion dollar firms who have been around for decades like a Yamaha, or Trek, or Giant, so they dont even know what they dont know about how to handle the demand increases, or supply chain quality, so they arent even knowing how to ask the right questions. This will continue for some time, as the ebike industry 'graduates' from early adopter phase to early mainstream (where we are now), and then into mainstream. Give it another 10 years before lots of these firms are weeded out by their own ignorance, and it wont be lack of demand that puts them under, or lack of sales, but NOT knowing how to scale and how to source and manage both their own supply chain, and then their demand side consumer management and after the sale support. And you dont gain that by hiring people who are 'smart' in certain areas, as a lot of it is institutional knowledge and entire systems, that no one person is capable of having the experience or years of experience individually to comprehend these systems the big boys put in place over decades in other product venues.

So all in all, not surprised whatsoever, by Rad increasing prices, (and doing so only slightly) and many more brands are already planning for those increases for their 2021 model line ups. Ebike firms with ebikes mostly priced below $1500 are going to learn its not profitable or sustainable to keep their prices that low, and soon you will see firms like Rad offering fewer and fewer models below the $2000 price point, and having many more models above $2000. You can't build, sell, and have enough profit AND a quality ebike below the $1000 price point, nor really cant do it for very long below the $1500 price point, before quality and warranty issues really catch up with you, and burn you badly. But keeping with Rad as an example, they cannot just over night bump their prices up over $2000, since their entire model is based on very low first price, with a really generic frame, and really basic electronics and so on. So you will see content creep (slowly improving components), then some price creep, and then a little more options creep, all in an upward trend toward where brands like IGO, Magnum, and Surface are already at. (i.e. low $2000's). Look at where Sondors was just a few short years ago with all their models below $800, and now most are above $1500, as one example of many who have learned the hard way, below $1000 is a steep money losing proposition. (i.e. turn a large fortune into a very small one)
Wow, thanks for taking the time to write that all up! Very informative!
 
Next year will be far worse in terms of back orders and shortages. I listed many reasons in my prior post, but so many more people are now finding out about ebikes due to this massive surge this year catalyzed by the effects of the lockdowns and Covid 19. the ebike industry has been right near that inflection point of going from early adopter to early mainstream, and the consensus is its JUMPED that chasm big time, right into the early mainstream phase, where year over year growth will really continue to outpace anything we have seen for the past 5 years here in the US. It was bound to happen, but typically you dont see such an acceleration. Many ebike brands saw surges of 300 to 600%, which is unprecedented for any industry or early adopter technology. A number of my suppliers all report similar sentiments, based on what they are getting from their supply chain people, which is that next year is going to be REALLY TOUGH, even if the demand merely stayed flat. Factories for all components, just are not capable of ramping up much more than they already had been, and that can take anywhere from 1 to 2 years to have a material increase in output. The bottleneck right now as we speak, are the major suppliers like Shimano and Tektro, and even at this late juncture in a season where things usually slow down, ebike deliveries are being delayed nearly 60 to 90 days by the fundamental components such as Shimano's derailleurs, and Tektro's hydraulic brakes. There are NO backups to these vendors, and they are supplying to the bike industry which has seen and continues to see an unprecedented back log and surge in demand that is just not letting up. Many regular bike shops, who carried primary brands, ran out of bikes by May or June, and basically were 'hosed' for the rest of the season, as bike ordering is always months to a year in advance and there is just no extra allocation available in a typical season. So with 300 to 600% this year in ebikes, and regular bike brands seeing 100 to 300% increases, the industry is in a precarious supply and demand imbalance that wont resolve itself over night.

If you were one of those bike shops who ran out of bikes, and an owner who realizes you could have sold far more, and made way more in earnings, then you can bet your 'first born', these owners will NOT be caught short again in 2021. Especially since there are no signs of a let up in bike or ebike demand, and many bike shops were actually scavenging for used bikes on line, so they could buy them, re-condition them, and sell them so they would have more than just relying on service and repairs. Many big players including Trek, and Specialized have been telling their dealers there wont be deliveries until April 2021. Thats actually way too late, so dealers are scrambling like there is no tomorrow, and calling up new brands they have never before considered until now, JUST so they can have any bikes for next season. You need bikes and ebikes in inventory by February at the latest in any regular season, or its slim pickin's. This year a whole lot of the bike and ebike industry got caught with their pants down big time. In fact many on line ebike players were so screwed, they dropped their prices just to get any pre-orders they could to keep cash flowing in. Espin is one of those as was Qualiports, just to name a couple out of at least 3 dozen others who had to resort to these very desperate tactics. Think about it. That occurred, and they were in financial trouble, because of HIGH demand, and basically they had no supply in time for what the needs were. So buyers went elsewhere. Bet none of you considered that could happen, and thought all these brands were 'fat,dumb,and happy' with all the demand. 2020 will be a massive shake out year, where many of these just wont be able to navigate or compete with others for their spots in their shared factory lines, so yes prices will be going up, and the desperate will not be making much margin, even with price hikes, because they screwed themselves here in 2020, by not building their business properly or being diversified. Up to now, it was 'easy' to be an ebike vendor. Not so much anymore. barriers went up at least 5 fold, due to the market dynamics that happened this year. I'd estimate at least 30 out of over 130 brands will cease to exist in 2021. I could be wrong of course, but its not a pretty scene in the bike and ebike supply chain right now. Lots of battles going on for sheer survival.
Again, thanks for this insight! So do you own an E-Bike shop?
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
Again, thanks for this insight! So do you own an E-Bike shop?

CynicalZombie, And the upshot of all this is ... we better hope our credit card stands by us when our pre-ordered bike never shows up. I'm in this boat right now. Not panicking but my bike has already been postponed two months and I know they bought the bikes six months ago. Maybe I slipped in and will get away with it but from now on out I suspect only the big established bike retailers will be able to get ANYTHING. And order time may go out to a year.
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
My paranoia speaks: What if the people you pre-purchased from have been 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' ( living on your capital while losing ground in the market )? Will credit card companies still refund your money when they can't get anything back from a broke company?
 
D

Deleted member 4210

Guest
My paranoia speaks: What if the people you pre-purchased from have been 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' ( living on your capital while losing ground in the market )? Will credit card companies still refund your money when they can't get anything back from a broke company?
If its Rad you will very likely receive your ebike. Most others will likely too. But going into next year it could certainly get dicier, at least according to the trend with what I am seeing from the major accessory and component distributors, and then a few of the ebike suppliers themselves opening up about a bit of it. And my intent was not to stir up any paranoia. The industry is generally very healthy with so much demand, and a lot of interesting developments with designs and so on, but there are an awful lot of brands that keep entering, (barriers very low to do so) and in many industries throughout economic commerce history, its rare to see more than 130 different firms be able to co-exist in such a concentrated geography, especially for what amounts to a fairly big ticket purchase for a lot of the consumers out there. Usually there is a lot of whittling down, especially in early stage commercially available tech product markets (im talking products that are beyond the alpha and beta testing stage.) In the early 1900's there were over 100 different auto manufacturers. It took a while, but not as long as you might think, to have that whittled down fairly severely before we eventually got to the dominant "Big 3" and everyone else. Maybe ultimately we get down to a similar situation that exists with regular bikes, where there again we have a 'Big 3 or 4' representing more than 60% of the market (that could take a couple decades here with ebikes), and then a whole bunch of 'also rans' or specialty niche firms. The shake outs tend to occur in stages according to technology historians, with sometimes external events, catalyzing a bunch at a time to go under. With cars, World Wars actually took a bunch of vendors out of the picture, never to return. Maybe this time it will be a stinkin' virus ? Who knows ? They say history often rhymes, if it doesn't necessarily repeat exactly.
 
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reed scott

Well-Known Member
If its Rad you will very likely receive your ebike. Most others will likely too. But going into next year it could get dicier.
Well I've always got my MTB. She and I have rekindled our love of late. 🥰 She just got new Shimano disc brakes and a nice rack and bag is on the way. I think a new wheel set would make her very happy.
 
So what would your advice be for someone who knows they want to buy a RadRover but wants to wait till the 2021’s because they wouldn’t ride till early Spring anyway?
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
So what would your advice be for someone who knows they want to buy a RadRover but wants to wait till the 2021’s because they wouldn’t ride till early Spring anyway?
If you're not going to ride it til 2021.. then just wait til 2021?

RadRover might get revised by then, and other companies might introduce something you're more interested in.

But if pandemic gets worse... you might not even be able to get a bike for a several months. So if you want to be 100%, I guess you can order it now, and store the bike somewhere til 2021?
 
RadMission = $1099
RadWagon 4 = $1699
RadRover 5 (& step thru) = $1599
Since we are near the end of their normal model year, I wonder why.
I recall seeing the RadWagon 4 originally advertised at a "pre-order" price, and maybe this was also the case with the RadMission. But now that RPB is catching up on their stock, perhaps they've eliminated this "pre-order" discount??? (though they never offered a pre-order discount for the RadRunner Plus). At any rate, it's always frustrating when pricing structures change -- when prices go up, folks who already made their purchase are happy, but when prices go down current customers feel cheated.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
So what would your advice be for someone who knows they want to buy a RadRover but wants to wait till the 2021’s because they wouldn’t ride till early Spring anyway?

Tough call. The Rover is likely their best selling bike, and it's not really lacking in any particular area, other than maybe it's controversial motor size. It would be nice to see them put a REAL 750w in there for the couple of extra bucks it would cost them. That would require them to admit it doesn't have a REAL 750w in it now though.... something they may not be willing to do. Still, the success of the Rover has not gone unnoticed among other importers, and it's getting to be a pretty competitive field when comparing features and prices within that 1400-1700 dollar range. THAT'S what makes this a tough call.

I think we're going to see a pretty good Black Friday sale price, and from what I've seen over the last couple of years, that price will be tough to beat until NEXT Black Friday. My thoughts anyway, FWIW. -Al