Resell advice?

Emma H

New Member
Glad to help... what did you decide to do?
I'm going to list it at my company, where I've had a lot of people stop me to ask about it/comment on how cool it looks, for $2200 with the expectation it will be haggled down (but, as I say, I'm perpetually surprised by the resale market locally...so I think it's worth a shot). If I don't get bites, I'll list for lower on FB Marketplace and Nextdoor (where I've gotten better prices for things) for a bit lower. If I don't hear anything, I'll list in the spring online. I'll probably be having knee surgery in Jan/Feb (to address the knee problem that necessitated the throttle-assist one) so if I don't sell locally by mid-Jan, it will be easier just to wait for better weather. And, who knows, I may switch back to it if my knee fully heals--I really do love the bike.
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
Since this is the really old Gen. 2 Bosch motor and a small battery of only 500wh , an ebike w/o warranty or untrasfferAble warranty you’d be lucky to get 7-800$ for it.
Now a new ebike With warranty that starts at 2k , see Giant or A Trek Verve, is vastly superior to yours.
Nobody in their right mind would buy a used ebike w/o warranty. This can be a very expensive lesson and it is for many members here on Ebr. You can read many threads here about this issue.
We are at Gen. 4 Bosch motor and 700wh battery capacity being very common. Or 2 dual batteries.
Can try hold on to it for sentimental reasons and give it away for free in a few years.
There are brand name class-3 e-bikes with brand name motors starting new with warranty at $2K USD regular price?
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
There are brand name class-3 e-bikes with brand name motors starting new with warranty at $2K USD regular price?
do these count?

 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
do these count?

They meet some of the criteria, but they're hub motor bikes and I'd asked about brand name mid-drives at that price. These hub motor bikes aren't crazy heavy, but at 55-56 pounds I think they're heavier. I think they're definitely shorter range than the Haibike; the Juiced for example says it gets only 39 miles at class 1 speeds on medium-ish assist - level 3 out of 6 assist levels. The lightly used Haibike might be lighter and will almost certainly be longer range on a charge, and uses a brand name so may have a better long-term prognosis for servicing. So I'd pay as much or more for the Haibike as I would either of those new hub motor bikes.
 

Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
There are brand name class-3 e-bikes with brand name motors starting new with warranty at $2K USD regular price?

Class 3 with mid motor no, unless is a Juiced , Motobecame or somthng. Similar.

Fuell ebike if it’s still on indigo is 2.7k
But maybe one of the online stores has a great sale going on ?
The class 3 is 4k.

 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
Class 3 with mid motor no, unless is a Juiced , Motobecame or somthng. Similar.

Fuell ebike if it’s still on indigo is 2.7k
But maybe one of the online stores has a great sale going on ?
The class 3 is 4k.


So my point is that this bike might be worth more than some have speculated, because the least expensive modern class 3 Haibike (and brand name class-3 bikes with brand name mid-drive motors in general) are much more expensive than most of the numbers people are throwing around in this thread. That's why I asked for an example of a brand name mid-drive class-3 with a brand name motor that costs $2K. There isn't one, they start at much higher prices than that, which makes this used Haibike worth more IMO. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong, and time will tell.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
So my point is that this bike might be worth more than some have speculated, because the least expensive modern class 3 Haibike (and brand name class-3 bikes with brand name mid-drive motors in general) are much more expensive than most of the numbers people are throwing around in this thread. That's why I asked for an example of a brand name mid-drive class-3 with a brand name motor that costs $2K. There isn't one, they start at much higher prices than that, which makes this used Haibike worth more IMO. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong, and time will tell.
You didn't say mid drive, you only said class 3.

Also, what's your example of non-brand name company?
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
You didn't say mid drive, you only said class 3.

Also, what's your example of non-brand name company?
True, my mistake for presuming mid-drive since the Haibike in question is a mid-drive, and that anything else wouldn't be an apples-to-apples comparison. I felt mid-drive could be presumed in the context of the discussion, but fair enough if you felt differently. :)

As for whether Bafang counts as a "name brand" yet (which was another of my criteria), I think Bafang might some day become a "brand name" motor but I don't think they're quite there yet. And I say that as someone who has ridden and been impressed by a Bafang M620 mid-drive recently, and who has a bike with a Bafang mid-drive on order with an M300 motor to also try as well. I'm open to Bafang, but they're not yet in the league of Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, or Brose when it comes to the breadth of dealer network, parts availability, service documentation, and history of supporting what they sell. Doesn't mean they won't get there some day, and that may even be in the near future, but I think they're not quite there yet.
 
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Timpo

Well-Known Member
True, my mistake for presuming mid-drive since the Haibike in question is a mid-drive, and that anything else wouldn't be an apples-to-apples comparison. I felt mid-drive could be presumed in the context of the discussion, but fair enough if you felt differently. :)

As for whether Bafang counts as a "name brand" yet (which was another of my criteria), I think Bafang might some day become a "brand name" motor but I don't think they're quite there yet. And I say that as someone who has ridden and been impressed by a Bafang M620 mid-drive recently, and who has a bike with a Bafang mid-drive on order with an M300 motor to also try as well. I'm open to Bafang, but they're not yet in the league of Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, or Brose when it comes to the breadth of dealer network, parts availability, service documentation, and history of supporting what they sell. Doesn't mean they won't get there some day, and that may even be in the near future, but I think they're not quite there yet.
I don't know..

You do know Bafang is one of the biggest players in the ebike market right?

Bafang is a $744 million corporation, they have a huge factory and very sophisticated development center, the factory tour was done by EBR as well.
It would cost you $186 million to obtain 1/4 of company. (Shanghai Stock Exchange)

If you think it's not a "brand name", I don't know what it is.
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
I don't know..

You do know Bafang is one of the biggest players in the ebike market right?

Bafang is a $744 million corporation, they have a huge factory and very sophisticated development center, the factory tour was done by EBR as well.
It would cost you $186 million to obtain 1/4 of company. (Shanghai Stock Exchange)

If you think it's not a "brand name", I don't know what it is.
I do know that Bafang is a big and growing player, and I did read about their recent IPO and how they intend to use the funds they raised from it to expand. That doesn't make it a brand name.... yet. The definition of "brand name" that I'm using is "
a familiar or widely known name.
". An educated e-bike consumer may know about Bafang, but few others would. Surely not as many as would recognize the names Shimano, Bosch, and Yamaha. Put another way, 100% of people I talk to buying their first e-bike have heard of Shimano, and virtually 0% of these same people have heard of Bafang.

But there was a time when names like Honda, and Toyota, and Nissan were just as unfamiliar to the ear. So Bafang may be in the early stages of establishing that level of brand recognition.

What Bafang doesn't have yet, for all its "huge factory and very sophisticated development centre", is a broad distribution network for parts and service. Back to the Shimano example, they provide a weath of spare parts that is easy for almost any bike shop to acquire. Shimano provides a wealth of English language service documentation. And Shimano has a decades long history of supporting what they sell for extended periods of time after they stop making it. Bosch, Yamaha, and Brose also have decades-long histories of supporting what they sell. Bafang doesn't have that... yet. Maybe they'll build that trust, or maybe they'll discontinue parts for older models at a rate that doesn't appeal.

For sure Bafang is moving a lot of product, but I suspect that a high proportion of the product they sell are for systems using relatively inexpensive direct drive hub motors, not the higher quality mid-drive and geared hub units that they also make.

I'm not hating on Bafang at all. I have a Bafang mid-drive unit on its way to for us to build and test-ride in the hopes that we'll like it and will take more of them. Bafang may grow into the fifth major brand.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
I do know that Bafang is a big and growing player, and I did read about their recent IPO and how they intend to use the funds they raised from it to expand. That doesn't make it a brand name.... yet. The definition of "brand name" that I'm using is "
a familiar or widely known name.
". An educated e-bike consumer may know about Bafang, but few others would. Surely not as many as would recognize the names Shimano, Bosch, and Yamaha. Put another way, 100% of people I talk to buying their first e-bike have heard of Shimano, and virtually 0% of these same people have heard of Bafang.

But there was a time when names like Honda, and Toyota, and Nissan were just as unfamiliar to the ear. So Bafang may be in the early stages of establishing that level of brand recognition.

What Bafang doesn't have yet, for all its "huge factory and very sophisticated development centre", is a broad distribution network for parts and service. Back to the Shimano example, they provide a weath of spare parts that is easy for almost any bike shop to acquire. Shimano provides a wealth of English language service documentation. And Shimano has a decades long history of supporting what they sell for extended periods of time after they stop making it. Bosch, Yamaha, and Brose also have decades-long histories of supporting what they sell. Bafang doesn't have that... yet. Maybe they'll build that trust, or maybe they'll discontinue parts for older models at a rate that doesn't appeal.

For sure Bafang is moving a lot of product, but I suspect that a high proportion of the product they sell are for systems using relatively inexpensive direct drive hub motors, not the higher quality mid-drive and geared hub units that they also make.

I'm not hating on Bafang at all. I have a Bafang mid-drive unit on its way to for us to build and test-ride in the hopes that we'll like it and will take more of them. Bafang may grow into the fifth major brand.
Okay, I know exactly what you mean.

But if that's the case, Stromer is not a brand name.
People who have never had an ebike, or people who don't know anything about ebikes have never heard of Stromer, Voltbike, Juiced, etc.

Yamaha is probably the most "well known" brand.
Panasonic builds nice mid drive system, but I don't think they're widely available in North America.
Only in Europe and Asia.

It's really tricky, because Dodge is not a "brand name" in Japan. Chrysler doesn't sell Dodge or Plymouth.
Ford doesn't sell Lincoln in many countries, therefore, Lincoln isn't really a brand name.
Lincoln isn't really well known, just like Bafang.
Compare to Mercedes and BMW, not many people recognize Lincoln, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, etc.

Same as Xiaomi, Chinese multi billion $ cell phone company, they're just as, or almost as big as Samsung. But they're not a "brand name" although they're HUGE everywhere else in the world.
 
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Mass Deduction

Active Member
Okay, I know exactly what you mean.

But if that's the case, Stromer is not a brand name.
People who have never had an ebike, or people who don't know anything about ebikes have never heard of Stromer, Voltbike, Juiced, etc.

Yamaha is probably the most "well known" brand.
Panasonic builds nice mid drive system, but I don't think they're widely available in North America.
Only in Europe and Asia.

It's really tricky, because Dodge is not a "brand name" in Japan. Chrysler doesn't sell Dodge or Plymouth.
Ford doesn't sell Lincoln in many countries, therefore, Lincoln isn't really a brand name.
Lincoln isn't really well known, just like Bafang.
Compare to Mercedes and BMW, not many people recognize Lincoln, Pontiac, etc.

Same as Xiaomi, Chinese multi billion $ cell phone company, they're just as, or almost as big as Samsung. But they're not a "brand name" although they're HUGE everywhere else in the world.
Reasonable people can disagree on how much name recognition something needs to be considered a "name brand". For example, I recognized every single brand you mentioned, whereas I'm sure you're right that some of them would be unfamiliar to some people.

Brose is not a name I knew about before their e-bike ventures, but I nonetheless now consider them a name brand because they're a big player in the industry known for quality, service, and support. With big bike builders like Specialized and BH using them on a bunch of good quality bikes, I wouldn't dare argue that they're not a name brand player. But that's admittedly a biased response on my part, in part because their motors are exclusively used on good bikes. I'm actually using "brand name" as short form for "a company that makes primarily or exclusively high quality products, stands behind what they sell, has a history of offering service and/or support (as appropriate) for what they sell, etc."

When I see a Bafang motor on something with a 7spd freewheel, mechanical brakes (or even rim brakes), poor fit and finish, a weight in the 60-75 pound range, it actually devalues the brand for me. Even though Bafang has some high end models, since I'm not seeing much of that yet it leaves me feeling that Bafang has the potential to become a name brand but isn't there yet. But, like I say, that's a bias. And your bias might be different, and that's not necessarily wrong. :)
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Reasonable people can disagree on how much name recognition something needs to be considered a "name brand". For example, I recognized every single brand you mentioned, whereas I'm sure you're right that some of them would be unfamiliar to some people.

Brose is not a name I knew about before their e-bike ventures, but I nonetheless now consider them a name brand because they're a big player in the industry known for quality, service, and support. With big bike builders like Specialized and BH using them on a bunch of good quality bikes, I wouldn't dare argue that they're not a name brand player. But that's admittedly a biased response on my part, in part because their motors are exclusively used on good bikes. I'm actually using "brand name" as short form for "a company that makes primarily or exclusively high quality products, stands behind what they sell, has a history of offering service and/or support (as appropriate) for what they sell, etc."

When I see a Bafang motor on something with a 7spd freewheel, mechanical brakes (or even rim brakes), poor fit and finish, a weight in the 60-75 pound range, it actually devalues the brand for me. Even though Bafang has some high end models, since I'm not seeing much of that yet it leaves me feeling that Bafang has the potential to become a name brand but isn't there yet. But, like I say, that's a bias. And your bias might be different, and that's not necessarily wrong. :)
I think the fact that Yamaha, Bosch and Brose are pretty big in car industry makes a big difference.
Seriously, they are well known supplier for car engine, electronic parts, motor, computer, sensors, etc.

If they can build that, building an ebike motor should be a piece of cake for them.

Yamaha for example, not only they can build their own frame, also can build their own motor as well.

Toshiba battery powers Shimano STEPs and I believe Cannondale batteries are also powered by Toshiba.

Panasonic can build the motor, battery, frame, all by themselves.
 

Mass Deduction

Active Member
I think the fact that Yamaha, Bosch and Brose are pretty big in car industry makes a big difference.
Seriously, they are well known supplier for car engine, electronic parts, motor, computer, sensors, etc.

If they can build that, building an ebike motor should be a piece of cake for them.

Yamaha for example, not only they can build their own frame, also can build their own motor as well.

Toshiba battery powers Shimano STEPs and I believe Cannondale batteries are also powered by Toshiba.

Panasonic can build the motor, battery, frame, all by themselves.
I agree with everything you said, except that my Shimano rep informs me that Shimano has at least three authorized battery suppliers. You may still be right that all Shimano batteries are made by Toshiba, though; the other two battery manufacturers may be ones that OEMs using Shimano motors are authorized to use if making custom batteries for STePS systems. I can't be sure without additional information. My rep was clear that Shimano had authorized three companies to make STePS batteries, but not clear on whether Shimano themselves take advantage of that or not.

I am amazed at how many consumers are aware of the name Shimano. People who haven't ridden a bike in decades and have never heard of Rock Shox, SRAM, Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc., have nonetheless almost always heard of Shimano. It's absolutely unreal to me the name recognition Shimano commands, at least where I live. I expect bike people to be able to name drop Shimano, but there are a shocking number of people out there for whom Shimano is one of the few (and in some cases the *only*) bike-related company names that they could cite. I am continually amazed by this. I'm not sure if it's like this everywhere, or if this is a phenomenon unique to southern Vancouver Island.

Fun fact: my shop brought in a Panasonic folding e-bike in the early to mid-2000s, and finally sold it in the late 2000s I think.

An interesting side note to your point that if those major companies can make car parts that making e-bike parts should be a breeze for them. Bosch and Brose both repurposed car motors to make their first pedelec motors. I think one or the both of them took the motor out of a power steering column as the initial design, and it's evolved from there.

Yamaha was not the first company to create an e-bike, but they claim to be the first company to actually get a pedal-assist e-bike on retail sales floors in significant volume. Before that, I guess e-bikes were more like a moped? You had to hold down a throttle the entire time if you wanted the motor to work, there was no way to keep it engaged via your pedalling? It's not 100% clear to me what riding an e-bike like that would be like, but it definitely sounds like you'd have to engage the motor somehow separately from your pedalling, as engaging it with your pedalling is the big innovation that everyone talks about coming out of that 1989-1994 window of time.

Another fun fact: the debate between hub motor and mid-drive goes back over a century, with patents registered in the 1890s for each style of e-bike. The oldest known hub motor patent was registered oh so slightly earlier than the first known mid-drive patent.

Apologies if everyone knew the above anecdotes, and/or if I've been misinformed about any of them. :)
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
I agree with everything you said, except that my Shimano rep informs me that Shimano has at least three authorized battery suppliers. You may still be right that all Shimano batteries are made by Toshiba, though; the other two battery manufacturers may be ones that OEMs using Shimano motors are authorized to use if making custom batteries for STePS systems. I can't be sure without additional information. My rep was clear that Shimano had authorized three companies to make STePS batteries, but not clear on whether Shimano themselves take advantage of that or not.

I am amazed at how many consumers are aware of the name Shimano. People who haven't ridden a bike in decades and have never heard of Rock Shox, SRAM, Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc., have nonetheless almost always heard of Shimano. It's absolutely unreal to me the name recognition Shimano commands, at least where I live. I expect bike people to be able to name drop Shimano, but there are a shocking number of people out there for whom Shimano is one of the few (and in some cases the *only*) bike-related company names that they could cite. I am continually amazed by this. I'm not sure if it's like this everywhere, or if this is a phenomenon unique to southern Vancouver Island.

Fun fact: my shop brought in a Panasonic folding e-bike in the early to mid-2000s, and finally sold it in the late 2000s I think.

An interesting side note to your point that if those major companies can make car parts that making e-bike parts should be a breeze for them. Bosch and Brose both repurposed car motors to make their first pedelec motors. I think one or the both of them took the motor out of a power steering column as the initial design, and it's evolved from there.

Yamaha was not the first company to create an e-bike, but they claim to be the first company to actually get a pedal-assist e-bike on retail sales floors in significant volume. Before that, I guess e-bikes were more like a moped? You had to hold down a throttle the entire time if you wanted the motor to work, there was no way to keep it engaged via your pedalling? It's not 100% clear to me what riding an e-bike like that would be like, but it definitely sounds like you'd have to engage the motor somehow separately from your pedalling, as engaging it with your pedalling is the big innovation that everyone talks about coming out of that 1989-1994 window of time.

Another fun fact: the debate between hub motor and mid-drive goes back over a century, with patents registered in the 1890s for each style of e-bike. The oldest known hub motor patent was registered oh so slightly earlier than the first known mid-drive patent.

Apologies if everyone knew the above anecdotes, and/or if I've been misinformed about any of them. :)
Shimano definitely has more recognition for sure. (compare to Rockshox, Sram, etc.)
Whether you buy a cheap Walmart bike, some kind of Chinese bike from AliExpress, or state of the art MTB or roadbike, you will see Shimano everywhere.

In know Shimano is well known in fishing industry, although I am not certain how much that would help them in terms of brand recognition.

Yamaha definitely wasn't the first one to sell ebike. It has beed discussed here:

Also, if people are not particularly interested in bicycle, many people don't know Trek, Specialized or Giant.
Whereas Yamaha, they will likely have heard of them.

I didn't know that Panasonic made a folding ebike?

I know Honda had one back in 1995 to 2000 ish.
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Mass Deduction

Active Member
[...]
I didn't know that Panasonic made a folding ebike?
[...]
I suppose I don't know for sure that it ever came to market. Our shop bought it at a trade show, so perhaps we bought a prototype that never got released? We bought it in the early half of the 2000s, and finally sold it in May 2007. I don't have any info on it, I looked up the old invoice and all it says was "Panasonic Electric Bike" and that we sold it for $1699.99, as it was dead stock and we were happy to be rid of it. :) I'm pretty sure it was a folding bike, and not an urban compact like the Haibike Radius Tour. But it's been over a dozen years so anything is possible. :)
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
I suppose I don't know for sure that it ever came to market. Our shop bought it at a trade show, so perhaps we bought a prototype that never got released? We bought it in the early half of the 2000s, and finally sold it in May 2007. I don't have any info on it, I looked up the old invoice and all it says was "Panasonic Electric Bike" and that we sold it for $1699.99, as it was dead stock and we were happy to be rid of it. :) I'm pretty sure it was a folding bike, and not an urban compact like the Haibike Radius Tour. But it's been over a dozen years so anything is possible. :)
Never mind, you were right, they do build folding ebikes.