Riding the new ST2 s

JayVee

Well-Known Member
Trust me, I would, if I ever could. But I would increase tire pressure first :)

Two years ago, others did a fun race. And don't underestimate the guy with the BionX D just because he's wearing jeans. Read the whole story in German.

E-Bike-Race.jpg

To me it looks like they are comparing a 250Watt BionX drive to a 500 Watt ST2 drive. That's the 25km/h 250 Watt BionX drive on the Wheeler if I'm not mistaken. Why not run the ST2 against the E-Eagle "Speed" with a 500 Watt drive?

E-Eagle specs:
http://products.wheeler.ch/deu/e-bikes/e-eagle/wheeler-e-eagle.html

E-Eagle Speed specs:

http://products.wheeler.ch/deu/e-bikes/e-eagle/wheeler-e-eagle-speed.html
 
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bluecat

Well-Known Member
To me it looks like they are comparing a 250Watt BionX drive to a 500 Watt ST2 drive. That's the 25km/h 250 Watt BionX drive on the Wheeler if I'm not mistaken.

;) Because it's hard to find a volunteer who wants race against an ST2s.... ;)

I understand your doubts and I've to confess: I wasn't there and I have no reliable proof.

But i know, that the BionX rider hat excellent contacts to the industry. He is a very experienced e-bike rider; I guess, he wouldn't start with a lame duck - and he finished on pos. 3. In a short conversation afterwards, he stated: "Es waren eigentlich nur Bikes in der schnellstmöglichen Konfiguration am Start." This brings me to the conclusion, it was the 500W system.
 

JayVee

Well-Known Member
;) Because it's hard to find a volunteer who wants race against an ST2s.... ;)

I understand your doubts and I've to confess: I wasn't there and I have no reliable proof.

But i know, that the BionX rider hat excellent contacts to the industry. He is a very experienced e-bike rider; I guess, he wouldn't start with a lame duck - and he finished on pos. 3. In a short conversation afterwards, he stated: "Es waren eigentlich nur Bikes in der schnellstmöglichen Konfiguration am Start." This brings me to the conclusion, it was the 500W system.

Hmmm... Interesting... I think what he meant about the BionX being in the "fastest configuration" is that it had been tweaked with console codes. For example, code 3776 governs the speed at which the drive engages. Normally it's 2km/h but you can set it lower.

The BionX battery is white on the pic you posted from velojournal. And this means it's a 2014 model. If you go to page 141 of the 2014 Wheeler catalogue below you will see that the e-eagle for that year had a 250W BionX drive...

http://www.wheeler.ch/fra/service/kataloge/catalogues-2011-2015.html

I've demoed the ST2 multiple times and also the BionX D500 recently (2016 Wheeler E-Eagle Speed). As I said elsewhere at EBR I don't think there is a significant difference in hill climbing capabilities. But the ST2 seems to have a much more refined torque sensor, and this was particularly noticeable to me whilst traveling on small rolling hills. The ST2 always gives power when needed regardless of the situation. The D500's sensor tends to respond to terrain changes or slight changes in pedal pressure with a delay. When I was going slightly downhill and pedaling with a good amount of force, the D500 didn't always give me the power levels I expected. In fact, it was going uphill that the power delivery seemed the most predictable. On the contrary, the ST2 always seems to "know" what I want and instantly reacts to the slightest changes in pedal pressure. For me this is the biggest difference in "feeling" between the two bikes...
 

bluecat

Well-Known Member
Hmmm... Interesting... I think what he meant about the BionX being in the "fastest configuration" is that it had been tweaked with console codes. For example, code 3776 governs the speed at which the drive engages. Normally it's 2km/h but you can set it lower.

The firmware of the early Stromer was legacy from BionX. With 3773, a higher max. speed could be set. But not more force. If you want more strength, the controlled must be allowd to open for more Ampere. In case of Stromer, there is no display code to do this.

upload_2016-6-10_21-17-41.png



But there was this interface. Here , you could change at least everything. I guess, a similar tool exists for the BionX drives...

upload_2016-6-10_21-25-59.png
 

bluecat

Well-Known Member
A 60" night ride with high beam on. The camera was held by hand, autofocus and other automatics were set off. So please be lenient ;)

The visual impression was different. The area in front of the Stromer was bright, the partial shading was not visible by eye.

Click on the the word vimeo above and then on the 4 arrows to see the video in full screen mode.
 
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bluecat

Well-Known Member
I confess, it wasn't easy, but a couple of days ago, Im had to give back the STs. After more than 1'500km, das testing period has come to an end. The ST2 was used as a commuter bike and also for leisure. In the heat of the summer, in the rainy autumn or in the cold winter: The ST2s was always reliable. OK, with one exception: At -10ºC, the battery declined any cooperation due to a software error in th BMS. This error was reproducible, but a workaround is implemented now - and only a few rides might have been affected. But the overall summary is pure positive:

With a proper configuration, the ST2 is the ultimate sportbike!

The M99pro and the Di2 making a clear distance to the standard ST2. The larger battery is also an argument for the higher price. But 10k$ might also be the price for a nice used car in the US, isn't it?

ST2s_mirror_zpsi6jknl7c.jpg
 
D

Deleted member 803

Guest
There is no doubt the ST2 and ST2S are great bikes. It's just that they are terrible values. The US market is struggling to sell eBikes. In a recent dealer survey, of almost 600 dealers, conducted by Bicycle Retailer, eBikes comprise less than 10% of sales with 63% of dealers indicating that eBikes sales were either worse or much worse than standard bicycle sales. The IBD market continues to shrink with less than 4K dealers and the large brands such as Trek and Specialized plus ASI are buying more and more retail locations. These super dealers will squeeze out independent brands such as Stromer and make life even harder for them. We recently did a survey of our database with over 1K users and found that the majority of interested consumers consider eBikes too expensive with over 50% of them considering eBikes (cycling in general) as unsafe. We are fighting infrastructure, lifestyle, and cost in the North American market. I expect to see many vendors pull back or pull out of the US market as there are some reports that the retailer channel has an 8-10 month supply of eBikes.

I'd love to be wrong about all of this but there is growing data for my concerns.
 
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chgofirefighter

Active Member
There is no doubt the ST2 and ST2S are great bikes. It's just that they are terrible values. The US market is struggling to sell eBikes. In a recent dealer survey, of almost 600 dealers, conducted by Bicycle Retailer, eBikes comprise less than 10% of sales with 63% of dealers indicating that eBikes sales were either worse or much worse than standard bicycle sales. The IBD market continues to shrink with less than 4K dealers and the large brands such as Trek and Specialized plus ASC are buying more and more retail locations. These super dealers will squeeze out independent brands such as Stromer and make life even harder for them. We recently did a survey of our database with over 1K users and found that the majority of interested consumers consider eBikes too expensive with over 50% of them considering eBikes (cycling in general) as unsafe. We are fighting infrastructure, lifestyle, and cost in the North American market. I expect to see many vendors pull back or pull out of the US market as there are some reports that the retailer channel has an 8-10 month supply of eBikes.

I'd love to be wrong about all of this but there is growing data for my concerns.


Correct, people in America don't have 7k to invest on a bike. Very few do have that type of money to spend on an ebike, but that's very small percentage of people. Yes, the ST2 is a great bike, I own one myself but I was fortunate enough to get the ST2 at a huge discount becuase I would of never pay 7k plus taxes on an bike for that I would of purchased a scooter for far less money. I can see the marked in the USA to shrink in sales especially in the ebike business however, all these manufacturers continue to produce, built ebike so that says a lot about the futuer of ebikes. It will soon take off like a rocket as sooon as they make them very affordable for the average consumer to afford...
 
D

Deleted member 803

Guest
eBikes account for almost 10% of US bicycle sales?! That's fantastic. Compared to five years ago e-bike sales show almost 2000% growth. That is a torrid growth rate. According to NBDA, ebike sales accounted for only 0.5% of sales in 2012. eCycleElectric states that the U.S. market doubled between 2012 and 2013. Amazing growth, and like a snowball rolling down hill, it is only gaining speed and weight. Thanks @86 and still kicking for the great news.
I'm afraid your conclusion is not correct. There was no specificity to the "less than 10%" so we have no idea of the real percentage other than it is not a major contributor to the profit of the retailer. Also 37% of dealers in the survey do not sell eBikes and you can probably assume this is reasonably correct nationwide. This means that eBikes as a percent of overall bike sales is much much smaller than your assumption.

We find the channel stuffed with 8 months worth of inventory. By any profit measurement, the eBike category remains weak. I wish it were otherwise.......
 

bluecat

Well-Known Member
Thanks everybody for these insights.

Luckily for myStromer AG, the Swiss market is completely different. But the Swiss market is small, very small. That's why every company goes to Germany first. But Germany is part of the EU and the bureaucracy in the EU is horrible. The US market seems to be different. Even more price sensitive than the Germany. More mail order, more demand for discount.

The ST1x fills the gap between ST1 and ST2, but the "Model 3" is still missing. Will it ever come? I don't know. From my point of view, myStromer AG will continue as a niche player. Nevertheless, I could imagine they build a eBike sold only in the US.

Regarding the ST2s:
This is the Porsche of the eBikes. Thanks the Di2, the gear shifting during the acceleration is unbeatable. Thanks the 983Wh battery, you run longer in peak power. Thanks the M99pro, you have light as a motorbike - and you can flash the headlight. The only disappointing thing: I can't afford it.
 

bluecat

Well-Known Member
@bluecat, was the ST2S you have been riding on loan from Stromer?

Yes,

Together with my colleagues, I'm editor on this website: www.stromerforum.ch
myStromer AG handed over the ST2s with the purpose, to ride it under all conditions - and report every issue. So we checked the suitability for daily use. As I'm the one who commutes even at wintertime with the ST2s, I did this part (and for comparison also several km in the summer).
 
D

Deleted member 803

Guest
Faulty data. No way in hell that vendors imported 1 million ebikes into the country. I do not have access to the underlying data gathering but this does not mimic reality.
 

bluecat

Well-Known Member
Here some robust data from Switzerland:

Year 2016:

324'581 bicycles sold = 100%

75'665 of them were electric bicycles = 23.4%

3'990 of all were 26" & 45km/h = 1.2% of all or 5.3% of the e-bikes. In this field, myStromer AG is a major player

5'247 of all were 26" & 25km/h In this field, myStromer AG is also active in Switzerland.

The e-MTB sector is the strongest growing. Surprisingly, the commuter-sector (45 km/h road) has no progress. Very strange: 45 km/h MTB also growing - but the use them in the forest or mountains is forbidden!

Note:
25km/h = No licence plate, no driving licence, no insurance
45km/h = licence plate, driving licence and insurance mandatory

Datasoure:
http://www.velosuisse.ch/files/Velo Statistik Schweizer Markt 2016.pdf

upload_2017-3-3_18-55-15.png
 

Bob G

New Member
That is stunning data with ebikes at almost a quarter of all sales. I can't even imagine what the US market would look like with those numbers. I don't know what the population of Switzerland is but it's already at 50% of all North American ebike sales. They must have great bike lanes and be a really fun place to ride.
 

JayVee

Well-Known Member
Switzerland has roughly 8 million residents and has always has had a bicycle tradition. Compared to the size of the country, we have a lot of companies that produce e-bikes locally, despite the fact that it doesn't always make sense economically. Off the top of my head, the following Swiss companies currently produce e-bikes: Stromer, TDS, Flyer, Cresta, Stockli, Villiger, Watts, Canyon, Scott, Ibex, Voltitude... But there are several others I can't think of right now. Now that's an awful lot of e-bike companies for a country that's only slightly bigger than Maryland. Between Geneva and Lausanne, which are separated by 50Kms, I have counted more than 25 shops that carry e-bikes. It's estimated that roughly 500,000 e-bikes are in circulation.
 
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