Riese & Müller Delite review

E-Wheels

Well-Known Member
There were some suggestions on this forum and even my LBS mechanics suggested that maybe I could change the front or back rings to alter that ratio - but I haven't really explored that avenue yet.

Over50,
At one time I was considering the R&M Nuvinci Charger but my concerns regarding the limited high ratio end of the N380 hub required for commuting steered me towards the R&M Charger Touring as it has the Shimano 10S cassette which has higher gearing options
I posted the below about possible Gates pulley sizes in the Nuvinci Hub thread https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/nuvinci-hub.11852/ just in case you were considering a change out at some point

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Over50,
Thanks for posting your observations of the Nuvinci N380 CVT high-low ratio range
Your feedback on the R&M Charger is very useful and appreciated as I have included the 25km/hr Charger Nuvinci on my short list
Based on my current road bike gearing which allows me to comfortably cruise at 30-35km/hr, I have concerns if the N380 will give me enough high ratio range to cruise at similar speeds without having a too higher cadence
I am looking at gear ratio change out options if I was to buy a bike with the Nuvinci N380 hub and thought this might be helpful to you as well
Using the Gates Carbon Drive Calculator http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/Apps/DriveCalculator/index.html it appears as you may have a few options to change your current front and rear pinions to get higher gear ratios whilst optimizing your current 111t belt
This is providing you have enough adjustment at the dropouts to vary the chain stay lengths to accommodate the new pinions accordingly
I have assumed your bike has the below pinions and belt size which were taken from the R&M site listed for the Charger HS Nuvinci
Motor pinion 22t
Rear hub pinion 24t
Chain stay length 485
Belt 111t
Gear ratio 0.917

If so then the below options are available

New ratio option #1
Motor pinion 24t
Rear hub pinion 22t
Chain stay length 483.99
Belt 111t
Gear ratio 1.091

New ratio option #2
Motor pinion 26t
Rear hub pinion 22t
Chain stay length 478.45
Belt 111t
Gear ratio 1.182

Not sure what the cost would be to purchase new front & rear pinions from Gates, but it may be worth pursuing
 

Matt A

Member
The frames of the R&Ms do seem well put together and strong. People comment to me about the sturdiness of the Charger so they'd probably be really surprised to see the Delite. I guess the welds are always going to be the weak spots on any bike frame.

That gear ratio thing I had mentioned before: I don't have hills on my commute just a gradual grade change. On the way to work I am descending a bit and on the way home ascending. When I'm on an open stretch and have good pavement I run out of gear range and the only way to increase my speed is to increase the assist level. Its like using the assist level as another gear I guess. In fact, I have the shift suggestion thingy turned on in the Intuvia and sometimes it throws me the arrow to shift when I actually can't shift anymore. I've maxed out my gear range and the Intuvia is telling me to shift. On good pavement I feel like I have enough leg and lung power to get the bike to 28 with only Tour mode. But I don't have the gear range to get it there. I actually haven't hit 28 mph yet on this bike. My max is 27.5 and that was a slight ascension. If I am maxed out on gear and I up the assist to Turbo, I just feel like I'm spinning ridiculously fast. There were some suggestions on this forum and even my LBS mechanics suggested that maybe I could change the front or back rings to alter that ratio - but I haven't really explored that avenue yet.

A couple of the 2nd commuter bikes I am considering are 20 mph bikes. I'm really curious as to whether the higher torque motor and lighter bike but lower top speed might actually make my commute more efficient (given all the start/stop riding I have). I mentioned it before but very little of my total commute is spent at speeds over 20 mph. I have a couple of stretches where I get there but on those I'm usually cruising around 22-23 mph and never hitting the higher top speeds of 28 mph. On the commute home I sometimes keep the speed down a bit on the open stretches trying to stay right around 20 mph in order to conserve battery. I wish my area had a strong e-bike presence wherein I could borrower a bike for a day or two to test out on an actual 35 mile work commute. Its one thing to test ride a bike but totally another to sit on it for a couple of long rides over multiple days with your gear/wind etc.
Why the high end gear ratio of the Nuvinci is not ideal, I think it is enough. After reading your post I opened up the Nyon Fitness screen with the Cadence readout and found that the cadence in the highest gear ratio required to maintain 26.5-27mph was 85 for me. If yours is significantly more than that, I would consider having a shop take a look at your NuVinci, a shop that really really knows the Nuvinci. What worries me is that your Shift recommendations are going off while in the highest gear, this was my first clue that something was wrong with the Nuvinci. The bosch shift recommendation should not appear when you are already in the highest gear. This happened to me along with the spinning at high speeds which lead me to realize something has to be wrong.

It would be nice to have more ebike presence everywhere for test riding and reviews. If you rarely go over 20mph then I would get the CX drive, however one of your goals is fitness so the extra torque is something I feel you would never utilized. As you know, max torque is achieved at high RPMs, and if you are never doing top speed in Turbo, then you will never see that 75nm of torque. I am no expert so please don't take this as fact, but I absolutely highly highly doubt that the CX drive is going to hit the 75nm of torque unless you are either 1. close to top speed or 2. going up an extremely steep grade. I would opt for the optional higher speed even if I would rarely use it. Also, just as our HS bike starts to cut the motor down at 26mph, the CX drive I'm sure will start cutting your motor power out significantly at 18mph.
 

Matt A

Member
The frames of the R&Ms do seem well put together and strong. People comment to me about the sturdiness of the Charger so they'd probably be really surprised to see the Delite. I guess the welds are always going to be the weak spots on any bike frame.

That gear ratio thing I had mentioned before: I don't have hills on my commute just a gradual grade change. On the way to work I am descending a bit and on the way home ascending. When I'm on an open stretch and have good pavement I run out of gear range and the only way to increase my speed is to increase the assist level. Its like using the assist level as another gear I guess. In fact, I have the shift suggestion thingy turned on in the Intuvia and sometimes it throws me the arrow to shift when I actually can't shift anymore. I've maxed out my gear range and the Intuvia is telling me to shift. On good pavement I feel like I have enough leg and lung power to get the bike to 28 with only Tour mode. But I don't have the gear range to get it there. I actually haven't hit 28 mph yet on this bike. My max is 27.5 and that was a slight ascension. If I am maxed out on gear and I up the assist to Turbo, I just feel like I'm spinning ridiculously fast. There were some suggestions on this forum and even my LBS mechanics suggested that maybe I could change the front or back rings to alter that ratio - but I haven't really explored that avenue yet.

A couple of the 2nd commuter bikes I am considering are 20 mph bikes. I'm really curious as to whether the higher torque motor and lighter bike but lower top speed might actually make my commute more efficient (given all the start/stop riding I have). I mentioned it before but very little of my total commute is spent at speeds over 20 mph. I have a couple of stretches where I get there but on those I'm usually cruising around 22-23 mph and never hitting the higher top speeds of 28 mph. On the commute home I sometimes keep the speed down a bit on the open stretches trying to stay right around 20 mph in order to conserve battery. I wish my area had a strong e-bike presence wherein I could borrower a bike for a day or two to test out on an actual 35 mile work commute. Its one thing to test ride a bike but totally another to sit on it for a couple of long rides over multiple days with your gear/wind etc.
Oh yeah and also, if you too see your cadence being at about 85rpm at 26-27mph, then I would go with the different chain ring sizes. If you are spinning faster than that at 26mph+, then please get someone who knows what they're doing to fix your Nuvinci.
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah and also, if you too see your cadence being at about 85rpm at 26-27mph, then I would go with the different chain ring sizes. If you are spinning faster than that at 26mph+, then please get someone who knows what they're doing to fix your Nuvinci.

Good advice. I wonder if there is a way on my own (or at the shop) just to measure the Nuvinci's gear ratio (prior to having someone take anything apart)
I have assumed your bike has the below pinions and belt size which were taken from the R&M site listed for the Charger HS Nuvinci
Motor pinion 22t
Rear hub pinion 24t
Chain stay length 485
Belt 111t
Gear ratio 0.917

If so then the below options are available

New ratio option #1
Motor pinion 24t
Rear hub pinion 22t
Chain stay length 483.99
Belt 111t
Gear ratio 1.091

New ratio option #2
Motor pinion 26t
Rear hub pinion 22t
Chain stay length 478.45
Belt 111t
Gear ratio 1.182

Not sure what the cost would be to purchase new front & rear pinions from Gates, but it may be worth pursuing

Yes, I recall this now. I will run this over to my LBS to see what they think. Is option #1 probably the safest bet given it is the closest to the stock equipment/settings? It appears it is just a reversal of the front and back pinions and the chain stay length only varies slightly. And as a user modifying the stock setup (makes me nervous), is it better to run it past R&M, Bosch, or Gates and Fallbrook? So many manufacturers involved here...
 

E-Wheels

Well-Known Member
Good advice. I wonder if there is a way on my own (or at the shop) just to measure the Nuvinci's gear ratio (prior to having someone take anything apart)


Yes, I recall this now. I will run this over to my LBS to see what they think. Is option #1 probably the safest bet given it is the closest to the stock equipment/settings? It appears it is just a reversal of the front and back pinions and the chain stay length only varies slightly. And as a user modifying the stock setup (makes me nervous), is it better to run it past R&M, Bosch, or Gates and Fallbrook? So many manufacturers involved here...
Over50,
I have just checked the Gates site and it appears they no longer offer a Nuvinci 22t CDX rear sprocket
http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/products/rear-sprockets?mountstyle=nuvinci
 

Matt A

Member
Good advice. I wonder if there is a way on my own (or at the shop) just to measure the Nuvinci's gear ratio (prior to having someone take anything apart)


Yes, I recall this now. I will run this over to my LBS to see what they think. Is option #1 probably the safest bet given it is the closest to the stock equipment/settings? It appears it is just a reversal of the front and back pinions and the chain stay length only varies slightly. And as a user modifying the stock setup (makes me nervous), is it better to run it past R&M, Bosch, or Gates and Fallbrook? So many manufacturers involved here...
If you find a way to measure the NuVinci gear ratio please let me know, this wasn't something my LBS mentioned so I don't know if its possible. I would definitely ask R&M at first to start, but from my limited knowledge of R&M, I don't think they would approve any changes to the geometry of the bike.
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
If you find a way to measure the NuVinci gear ratio please let me know, this wasn't something my LBS mentioned so I don't know if its possible...

I spoke with the tech who recently did my brake bleed at my LBS. He did a really good job with the brakes and he's told me he has worked on the Nuvinci before so I think he's pretty reliable/competent. He said it is pretty easy for him to check to see if my Nuvinci is giving me the full high-end range. Its possible, he said that a cable might have stretched and perhaps it isn't fully rotating the Nuvinci hub interface. I hope to get it in one day this week after work and I'll report results. Below is a link to an old video on the N360 but at about 25 seconds there is a good visual of the rotation that is supposed to occur with the hub interface.

 
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Matt A

Member
I spoke with the tech who recently did my brake bleed at my LBS. He did a really good job with the brakes and he's told me he has worked on the Nuvinci before so I think he's pretty reliable/competent. He said it is pretty easy for him to check to see if my Nuvinci is giving me the full high-end range. Its possible, he said that a cable might have stretched and perhaps it isn't fully rotating the Nuvinci hub interface. I hope to get it in one day this week after work and I'll report results. Below is a link to an old video on the N360 but at about 25 seconds there is a good visual of the rotation that is supposed to occur with the hub interface.
That's cool. I'd be interested to see how to check. I really hate spending time at my LBS been there too many times. I am in the process of teaching myself how to repair 90% of what I'll run into. Changed the brake pads myself for the first time which was really easy, it was easy to bed them once installed too. I didn't see the link you mentioned?
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
That's cool. I'd be interested to see how to check. I really hate spending time at my LBS been there too many times. I am in the process of teaching myself how to repair 90% of what I'll run into. Changed the brake pads myself for the first time which was really easy, it was easy to bed them once installed too. I didn't see the link you mentioned?
Added the link above - somehow missed it the first time.
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
Shop said I did have a little shortening of my Nuvinci range likely due to some cable slippage. Showed me where the rotating arm is supposed to stop at the high end and the low end so I should be able to monitor it myself in the future. They did make a cable adjustment to the Nuvinci as well as a follow-up brake adjustment to their prior brake job. Hoping to commute tomorrow weather dependent so I'll see if I notice any difference. I should be hitting 1,000 miles this week or early next.
 

christoph

New Member
Shop said I did have a little shortening of my Nuvinci range likely due to some cable slippage. Showed me where the rotating arm is supposed to stop at the high end and the low end so I should be able to monitor it myself in the future. They did make a cable adjustment to the Nuvinci as well as a follow-up brake adjustment to their prior brake job. Hoping to commute tomorrow weather dependent so I'll see if I notice any difference. I should be hitting 1,000 miles this week or early next.
does it work now after the cable adjustment ?
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
does it work now after the cable adjustment ?
I don't notice much difference. I've chalked it up to the Nuvinci just not having the high end gear range I desire. Partly attributable maybe to me not knowing I'm a stronger cyclist than I thought. However I'm managing pretty well. I keep a steady cadence in Tour mode that equates to cruising along around 20-22 mph on flats without spinning too fast. If I want to increase my speed beyond that I really have to spin and/or increase the mode to Sport which leaves me spinning uncomfortably fast. When commuting in Tour mode, I almost always have the high end gear range maxed out once I get up to speed. In Eco mode, it functions more like a normal bike in that I use a wider gear range and don't usually max out the high end when cruising on flats. I set a record time for my commute today. Mostly attributable to very light traffic this week due to a holiday and summer. But 2 hours and 1 minute for 33 miles. Monday I did 2 hours and 2 minutes.
 

BurbManDan

Member
I don't notice much difference. I've chalked it up to the Nuvinci just not having the high end gear range I desire.

I don't think that's true. I've had my Charger up in the mid 40s on downhills and I'm not spun out. Probably not spinning faster than 85 - 90 rpm. I run my entire commute on turbo, cruising comfortably at just over 27mph, not at the highest ratio. The highest ratio is way too high (low cadence) at 27mph. Also, because the bike backs off power approaching 28 mph, you'll never cruise at 28... You'll get a real workout riding hard at 27.3+, route allowing, which mine does ;) For comparison, my route is 35.4 miles, relatively flat following two rivers (small climbs at each end, ~800ft), and on turbo riding hard, takes 1h30m. This leaves an estimated 10mi range in turbo remaining from the dual batteries.

There are two things I'd check:
  1. Cable stops and adjustments, with deep seated barrels to allow play required to remove the wheel to be taken up. There should be no dead area in the shifter between shifting up and down.
  2. More likely, the adjustment of the hub interface. See page 18 of the docs from this link.
 
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christoph

New Member
I don't notice much difference. I've chalked it up to the Nuvinci just not having the high end gear range I desire. Partly attributable maybe to me not knowing I'm a stronger cyclist than I thought. However I'm managing pretty well. I keep a steady cadence in Tour mode that equates to cruising along around 20-22 mph on flats without spinning too fast. If I want to increase my speed beyond that I really have to spin and/or increase the mode to Sport which leaves me spinning uncomfortably fast. When commuting in Tour mode, I almost always have the high end gear range maxed out once I get up to speed. In Eco mode, it functions more like a normal bike in that I use a wider gear range and don't usually max out the high end when cruising on flats. I set a record time for my commute today. Mostly attributable to very light traffic this week due to a holiday and summer. But 2 hours and 1 minute for 33 miles. Monday I did 2 hours and 2 minutes.
i have managed the same problem like you by putting a 21 sprocket in front , but my delite was a 25 km version not a 45 km version . i have build a rs bikespeed in the motor but could only reach 42 km an hour when i pedalling like a hamster . now the problem is gone
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
There are two things I'd check:
  1. Cable stops and adjustments, with deep seated barrels to allow play required to remove the wheel to be taken up. There should be no dead area in the shifter between shifting up and down.
  2. More likely, the adjustment of the hub interface. See page 18 of the docs from this link.
Interesting. I think # 1 is covered at least per the shop that checked it out. As for # 2, I read parts of the Nuvinci link and a bit too technical for me (in terms of carrying out the overdrive instructions). I'll have to call some more shops and try to find a Nuvinci expert. I'm pretty sure that is also beyond the capabilities of the shop that already checked the cabling for me. Based on your experience with it, it certainly sounds like mine behaves differently. Anything over about 23 mph on a flat starts to get uncomfortable (spinning too fast). I've never been able to hit 28 mph.
 

BurbManDan

Member
# 2, I read parts of the Nuvinci link and a bit too technical for me (in terms of carrying out the overdrive instructions).

To simplify #2 a bit, here is a photo of the shift mechanism on the side of the hub. The plastic part is actually two pieces that sit on splined shafts and move relative to one another around the axle to shift gears. The piece with two spars sticking out to the left of the axle are where the cable guides attach - this does not move when shifting gears. The part with the small hole and two cable attachments at the bottom in this photo is the plastic piece that moves to shift gears. Before you take the wheel off the bike, shift to the lowest gear ratio. Then, when you look at this perspective, you will see more gap between these two plastic parts, where in my photo there is no gap. Focus on the tiny hole relative to the two spars sticking out to the left.

To fix your high range problem, loosen the nut under the metal guide in the center. Pull the plastic parts up off the splines, maintaining the orientation of the two spars sticking out to the left. Rotate the other part to close the gap between those two spars and the small hole so it matches the picture, and push it back onto the splines, tighten the nut, put the wheel back on the bike, and enjoy 30+ mph without spinning like a hamster.
IMG_20170708_100803.jpg
 

Over50

Well-Known Member
Your photo shows it pretty well. I found this Park Tool video that I think demonstrates page 18 of the manual. Nevertheless, I'm not confident I could carry that out without making matters worse. I will call some shops and try to track down a Nuvinci expert locally.


I tried a little experiment today. Nice day with light wind so I went out in the morning to a local boulevard. Hardly any traffic. Only problem was pavement at this stretch is pretty crappy. With a light tailwind and Turbo mode and pedaling as hard as I could, I could manage only about 27.2 mph. I headed off to a boulevard with better pavement and a dedicated bike lane. Same result at about 27.5 mph. My previous top speed held which was 27.6 mph. I didn't feel like I was spinning crazily but pedaling as hard as I could I was unable to surpass 27.6. I was pretty winded after the sprint. So on a flat with a light tailwind, would you say it is pretty easy to hit 28 mph in Turbo?

I then repeated the 1 mile stretch in Tour mode picking a strong and fast cadence (but not uncomfortable) and 23 mph was about the comfortable cruising speed. I seem to recall that when the bike was brand new, I hit 25 mph in Eco mode on the same stretch of road. I might have had more tailwind that day.
 

BurbManDan

Member
...So on a flat with a light tailwind, would you say it is pretty easy to hit 28 mph in Turbo?

Actually, I'd say hitting a full indicated 28 mph on level ground requires huge effort. The reason is that assist is cutting off between 27 and 28, so that by the time you actually reach 28, it's all you - the bike is basically off at that point. Think about how hard it is to ride a non-electric, lightweight bike at 28... Then consider that this beast weighs 70+ pounds, plus has a relatively lossy drivetrain... That's why I think cruising at around an indicated 27.3 is more typical because there is still substantial electric assistance at that speed.

On my Felt NineE, I rode almost always on eco or tour. On flat ground with no wind, 22 was pretty typical, and on tour 25 was typical. On turbo, the Felt runs enthusiastically up to 27.5, again where the assistance starts to fade. I can cruise a little faster on it (not a full 28), but it weighs considerably less and has a chain drive.
 

Darking

New Member
I was actually fully into buying a bike with the Shimano deore XT 11s shadowplus, it ran so smooth. But after trying the Nuvinci N380 hub.. i had no choice.. i had to have it :) Im a bit worried about how it will work in the frost (im from denmark, where the winters can get damp and cold). But hopefully its a nonissue. i did 44km/h on a R&M Charger GT, and i did not feel like i was spinning with a super high cadence.
 

BurbManDan

Member
I was actually fully into buying a bike with the Shimano deore XT 11s shadowplus, it ran so smooth. But after trying the Nuvinci N380 hub.. i had no choice.. i had to have it :) Im a bit worried about how it will work in the frost (im from denmark, where the winters can get damp and cold). But hopefully its a nonissue. i did 44km/h on a R&M Charger GT, and i did not feel like i was spinning with a super high cadence.

I'd be curious to hear other's cold temperature Nuvinci experience, but I think for wet it will be great just because there's no chain, lube, far less rust issues to deal with...