Specialized, Trek or Orbea, which one?

WattsUpDude

Well-Known Member
Maybe. That and their ability levels and route choices were more suited to the hub based drive system.
Maybe. I liked my Gain while I had it. After trying a bike with a torque sensor, though…it was just too good to pass up. But everyone has a different riding style.
 

StevenC56

Active Member
Region
USA
Maybe. I liked my Gain while I had it. After trying a bike with a torque sensor, though…it was just too good to pass up. But everyone has a different riding style.
I get it. I got a really great deal on my 2020 Gain, and anything else would have been out of my comfort spending zone. So for now it will be just fine for me.
 

Firnatine

Member
Region
USA
Can you give us an idea of how far you're riding each day, the elevation gain and the speed? I like my Creo, but it just doesn't have the power of the Domane HP+. If you're doing an average of say 28 km/hr. or slower and say 100 km's a day then the Creo will likely be ok. But if the group is going to be doing say 33 km/hr. then I'm not sure the Creo battery will be enough. I think the Domane HP+ can be had in a dual battery configuration if that's what you need.

I guess it also depends upon how much power you're supplying. When you ride your Santa Cruz do you know what your FTP is and your watts/kg? What about the group in general? That would help understand how much power you need to keep up with the group. If the difference is small then the Creo will likely be fine, but the bigger that gap the more likely you'll want the Domane HP+.
We will be riding about 3800 miles in 38-40 days. This is not a relay so most other then me most if not all the other riders are planning on riding close to 100 miles a day. I'm the oldest in the group by at least ten years and will be pushing 73 when we leave on August 1st. I am in pretty good shape for my age and have gone through a stress EKG before starting any serious training. The cardiologist said I was good to go. At this time I'm hoping to be able to average 30-50 miles a day just riding my Santa Cruz Stigmata gravel bike. With an eBike like the Creo SL Evo or the Domane HP+ I think I would be able to get at least 25 more miles from this body of mine. We will have some serious climbs along the way; the toughest climb should be the Teton Pass at 8000 ft. Highest elevation will be around 10,000.

We are all firefighters as well as a few military vets riding so no one will be dropped, we all go together. That being said I don't want to be the one to slow everyone down. On our group rides we have been averaging 15 mph with light to moderate elevation gains.

Don't know my FTP and really don't care, I measure my fitness by my heart rate. I attached a little virtual training ride I did on my Wahoo Kickr Bike to give you an idea. https://www.strava.com/activities/4902334605
 

Firnatine

Member
Region
USA
Its been a while since I checked my post and want to say thanks to everyone offering input. I came across a real nice 2020 Creo Sl Evo on The Pros Closet but it stated max speed assist at 20mph so I bypassed it thinking it was a non U.S bike for the class one speed. It was on their site for about two weeks so out of curiosity I decided to contact them to see if it was a typo or was it a class 1. It took about 20 minutes for the rep to reply that it was a class 3 and the 20mph was a typo. The price was $5600 with low mileage and like new condition. The same bike today $7250 so went back on the site and the bike was sold. This all took place in less than 30 minutes. Needless to say I was disapointed but there is a reason for everything, now I just have to wait for that reason.

They have a couple of 2019 Trek Domane + on their site that look interesting. They are identical except one is rated at 63Nm and the other is 85Nm. Why would the exact same bike with the same motor of different torque ratings and would a difference of 22Nm be worth $500 more. They both have the Sram Force 20t crank and 11/36 cassette which I'm not sure about. Anyone have any experience on this particular Domane?
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Its been a while since I checked my post and want to say thanks to everyone offering input. I came across a real nice 2020 Creo Sl Evo on The Pros Closet but it stated max speed assist at 20mph so I bypassed it thinking it was a non U.S bike for the class one speed. It was on their site for about two weeks so out of curiosity I decided to contact them to see if it was a typo or was it a class 1. It took about 20 minutes for the rep to reply that it was a class 3 and the 20mph was a typo. The price was $5600 with low mileage and like new condition. The same bike today $7250 so went back on the site and the bike was sold. This all took place in less than 30 minutes. Needless to say I was disapointed but there is a reason for everything, now I just have to wait for that reason.

They have a couple of 2019 Trek Domane + on their site that look interesting. They are identical except one is rated at 63Nm and the other is 85Nm. Why would the exact same bike with the same motor of different torque ratings and would a difference of 22Nm be worth $500 more. They both have the Sram Force 20t crank and 11/36 cassette which I'm not sure about. Anyone have any experience on this particular Domane?
The 63 nm bike is probably a 2019 Domane+ with the gen 2 Bosch motor while the 85 nm is the newer gen 4. The difference is easy to tell in the pictures as the older version had a 2.5 internal gear reduction with a 18 or 20 tooth chain ring while the gen 4 has a more conventional size 44-46 tooth.
 

Firnatine

Member
Region
USA
The 63 nm bike is probably a 2019 Domane+ with the gen 2 Bosch motor while the 85 nm is the newer gen 4. The difference is easy to tell in the pictures as the older version had a 2.5 internal gear reduction with a 18 or 20 tooth chain ring while the gen 4 has a more conventional size 44-46 tooth.
They are both 20t chain ring but noticed the 63nm is Bosch performance speed 350w motor and the 85nm is the Bosch performance line CX. I'm guessing that must must have been an upgrade option in 2019. I'd like to know how much of a difference that would make for the additional $500? I'm still leaning towards the Creo but weighing all my options. I need to find where I can test ride them.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
The CX is a wicked climber but is limited to 20mph while the Speed motor keeps assisting to just short of 28 mph. If you are going to spend most of your time in gravel and on trails, the CX will be a better choice but if you are mostly road riding, I would recommend the speed motors. I have three different ebikes, all with Bosch motors. One is a 2018 mountain bike with the Gen two CX motor like the ones on the two Treks. the other two have the gen 4 speed motors. The gen 2 is not as snappy but it not only leaves off helping you at 20mph but because it has the 2.5/1 internal reduction, it put quite a bit of drag on the crankset making it very difficult to go any faster. The gen 4 motors have very little, if any, of that motor drag effect.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
I ride a Trek Super Commuter with the gen 2 motor and it does have significant drag when not assisted, which is why I derestricted it so that as long as I can pedal there is motor support. The bike now has 35,500 miles with no motor issues.
The CX motor derestricted would perform well.
bikespeed - tuning for your pedelec or e-bike
I agree completely my Riese & Muller Mountain is derestricted and a great bike. It has almost 6,000 miles on it without so much as a hiccup. The stock front chainring was a 15 tooth. In order to take full advantage of the increased speed enabled by the dongle, I put an 18 tooth up front and went from an 11 speed 11-42 rear cassette to an 11 speed 11-46 to recapture the climbing power lost by putting on the bigger chainring. These moves took an excellent bike and made it even better. I must say though that the gen 4 speed, with 85 newton meters, has all the getup and go of the gen 2 CX if not a little more.

The gen 4 motors are significantly more difficult to hack for more speed as the EU mandated that the class 1 motor incorporate hack detection. Many of the EU countries, Germany included, require that class 3 bikes that assist to 45 kmph be licensed carry full insurance, cannot use bike lanes or dedicated bike trails. A dongle basically turns a class 1 bike into a class 2. Now, if the gen 4 Bosch motor senses that it has been hacked, it limits itself to walk mode until it is brought into the shop where it reports through the computer the fault code which results in loss of warranty. Some of the dongle makers claim they have made their product undetectable. However, there is a risk that, when you bring the bike into the shop for some other fix, they will hook your bike up to the Bosch cloud for firmware update that may contain software to detect the latest hacks. It is a game of leap frog.
 
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Captain Slow

Well-Known Member
100 miles a day on a Creo with significant climbing is asking quite a bit from the Creo battery even with a range extender. If you could do that on a Creo and keep up, I'd think that you don't need the Creo as it wouldn't be providing much assistance. As a Creo owner I'd recommend you get something with significantly more battery capacity.
 

Firnatine

Member
Region
USA
100 miles a day on a Creo with significant climbing is asking quite a bit from the Creo battery even with a range extender. If you could do that on a Creo and keep up, I'd think that you don't need the Creo as it wouldn't be providing much assistance. As a Creo owner I'd recommend you get something with significantly more battery capacity.
I guess you didn't read my post; the group I will be riding with intend to ride the entire way which will amount to about 100 miles per day. I know my limitations so I'm hoping my average will be around 50 miles a day. I plan to alternate between my Santa Cruz Stigmata and whatever eBike I end up getting. If I do buy a Creo I would most likely look into the backup battery. I'm not looking for a free ride just something to help get over the big bumps.
 

Captain Slow

Well-Known Member
Oh, sorry didn't catch that part. If you're only doing 50 miles a day then the Creo could do that if you don't ask for too much assistance from the motor. I regularly get 100+ km's out of my Creo but that's without much elevation and I'm usually only getting about 15% assistance.

But there are so many variables at play i.e. elevation, speed, your weight, etc ..... that one only knows when they actually do it.
 

Akrotiri

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
I ride a Trek Super Commuter with the gen 2 motor and it does have significant drag when not assisted, which is why I derestricted it so that as long as I can pedal there is motor support. The bike now has 35,500 miles with no motor issues.
The CX motor derestricted would perform well.
bikespeed - tuning for your pedelec or e-bike
Wow, 35k miles on one Bosch motor!

No maintenance on the gears inside or anything?

I always wondered what’s the lifespan of the Bosch motors and hoped it was atleast 15-20k but 35k miles sounds fantastic.

I hope yours isn’t the exception and we all get that type of mileage out of our Bosch motors.
 

cj3209

Member
Region
USA
As an option, take a look at the Canyon Grail-On. Cheaper than the other makers since they mail you the bike. It comes with the Class 3 Bosch motor and you can easily get over 50 miles, on ECO mode which is enough for an average of 20 mph with some hills. Really powerful motor. The knobby tires run smooth over tarmac as well.

Cheers!
 

Luv2ride

Active Member
Wow, 35k miles on one Bosch motor!

No maintenance on the gears inside or anything?

I always wondered what’s the lifespan of the Bosch motors and hoped it was atleast 15-20k but 35k miles sounds fantastic.

I hope yours isn’t the exception and we all get that type of mileage out of our Bosch motors.
The only issues I have had are with wear parts like wheels, chains and brake pads. I also have an XM 700 that I let friends ride, it has 11,000 maintenance free miles on the motor.
 

Captain Slow

Well-Known Member
I have heard Bosch motors are quite reliable. I'm not sure if this one motor is indicative of all Bosch motors, but perhaps longevity is a by-product of that reliability.
 

Firnatine

Member
Region
USA
I just found a 2020 Turbo Vado SL 4 that was converted for gravel with drop bar and a slew of other upgrades including a Shimano GRX Di2 group set. He's asking $5200 with an extender battery. Here are a list of the modifications. * Easton Gravel Drop Bar * FSA Stem * Shimano GRX Di2 groupset (which means this is an 11 speed [OEM is 10 spd]) * Shimano GRX disc brakes. * Enve Seatpost * DT Swiss Tubeless Wheelset R470db (is set up tubeless) * Maxxis Rambler 700x40 tires * Shimano 11-42 Cassette * Shimano XTR Pedals * Specialized bottle cages. I never consider the Vado and really don't know much about it.
 

StevenC56

Active Member
Region
USA
That's the problem with expensive upgrades on bicycles or motorcycles for that matter. As a potential used buyer, are these upgrades you would spend money on yourself? Probably not. When I upgrade I keep all the original components. As a seller I'm going to be way ahead by making the bike stock again, and selling all the components separately. Much easier to sell as you have more potential buyers since you are not trying to recoup your upgrade costs too. Just my opinion.