Statement Regarding Potential CPSC Ebike Law Preemption of 3-class Legislation

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I'm asking the community to voice their disagreement with the 3-class system to People for Bikes (flood them with complaint calls). I'm asking the community to question state and local legislators that do not treat all compliant LSEBs as bike for their use laws. If a local land manager or politician takes the position that only class 1 ebikes allowed on a certain trail ask them "WHY?" and push them for an answer that they don't have. See if they are even aware of the federal definition for an Low Speed Electric Bicycle (remember you said you didn't know what that was originally yet it's been around since 2002 and allows all of us to ride without being considered on a motor vehicle so it's a big deal).
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I do speculate that some of the attacks on my posts come from People for Bikes representatives that will not identify themselves as such because clearly I have been trying to push them to engage on this debate on a public forum. If 3-class is the model legislation they claim it is they should have nothing to hide.
 

Gordon71

Well-Known Member
If I was to ask about my local trail use I would ask why it's 20MPH. That's too fast in my opinion. It should be 15MPH.
 

jabberwocky

Well-Known Member
Dude. Jebus. The reason people don't engage is you come across like a seriously unbalanced religious fanatic. Not just a religious fanatic, but one who has never once read the religious book you keep thumping, nor set foot in a church. You have no idea how advocacy works, how infrastructure is managed, who the stakeholders are, you've obviously never put an ounce of sweat into working on access... You've basically convinced yourself that this is The One True Fight, and as soon as you get what you want everything will magically open to ebikes (not just ebikes, but the ebikes you ride). Its just... I kinda don't know how to respond.

The reality is that the whole PFB/CSwhatever thing doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does. Access isn't a single national fight, as nice as that would be. Its about 1,000,000 small fights, happening at various levels of government (from national, to state, to county, to local, engaging various branches of government and private stakeholders at all those levels). As I've said before, it would do you some good to get involved with whatever local cycling advocacy group you have around you and try and build some relationships and see how things actually work.

And just FYI, just because people are rolling their eyes at your crusade doesn't mean they love PFB or the 3 class model legislation or whatever. Numerous people who have engaged you have made that clear. You've just done a really poor job making the case for what you're pushing.

I do speculate that some of the attacks on my posts come from People for Bikes representatives that will not identify themselves as such because clearly I have been trying to push them to engage on this debate on a public forum. If 3-class is the model legislation they claim it is they should have nothing to hide.

LOL! I hear PFB have secret agents who break into your house at night and implant microchips in your fillings. You should wear a faraday cage around your head to block their signals. FYI the best material is aluminum foil.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Dude. Jebus. The reason people don't engage is you come across like a seriously unbalanced religious fanatic. Not just a religious fanatic, but one who has never once read the religious book you keep thumping, nor set foot in a church. You have no idea how advocacy works, how infrastructure is managed, who the stakeholders are, you've obviously never put an ounce of sweat into working on access... You've basically convinced yourself that this is The One True Fight, and as soon as you get what you want everything will magically open to ebikes (not just ebikes, but the ebikes you ride). Its just... I kinda don't know how to respond.

The reality is that the whole PFB/CSwhatever thing doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does. Access isn't a single national fight, as nice as that would be. Its about 1,000,000 small fights, happening at various levels of government (from national, to state, to county, to local, engaging various branches of government and private stakeholders at all those levels). As I've said before, it would do you some good to get involved with whatever local cycling advocacy group you have around you and try and build some relationships and see how things actually work.

And just FYI, just because people are rolling their eyes at your crusade doesn't mean they love PFB or the 3 class model legislation or whatever. Numerous people who have engaged you have made that clear. You've just done a really poor job making the case for what you're pushing.



LOL! I hear PFB have secret agents who break into your house at night and implant microchips in your fillings. You should wear a faraday cage around your head to block their signals. FYI the best material is aluminum foil.
Funny...

I'm not religious at all. I hardly think I'm a fanatic even though I do care a lot about this subject. I bring up the potential interstate commerce issues with 3-class and no one seems to even understand what I'm talking about even though I've made it clear that the CPSC controls what is legal for 1st sale and not the states.

It's only going to be a big deal when insurance comes knocking.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Dude. Jebus. The reason people don't engage is you come across like a seriously unbalanced religious fanatic. Not just a religious fanatic, but one who has never once read the religious book you keep thumping, nor set foot in a church. You have no idea how advocacy works, how infrastructure is managed, who the stakeholders are, you've obviously never put an ounce of sweat into working on access... You've basically convinced yourself that this is The One True Fight, and as soon as you get what you want everything will magically open to ebikes (not just ebikes, but the ebikes you ride). Its just... I kinda don't know how to respond.

The reality is that the whole PFB/CSwhatever thing doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does. Access isn't a single national fight, as nice as that would be. Its about 1,000,000 small fights, happening at various levels of government (from national, to state, to county, to local, engaging various branches of government and private stakeholders at all those levels). As I've said before, it would do you some good to get involved with whatever local cycling advocacy group you have around you and try and build some relationships and see how things actually work.

And just FYI, just because people are rolling their eyes at your crusade doesn't mean they love PFB or the 3 class model legislation or whatever. Numerous people who have engaged you have made that clear. You've just done a really poor job making the case for what you're pushing.



LOL! I hear PFB have secret agents who break into your house at night and implant microchips in your fillings. You should wear a faraday cage around your head to block their signals. FYI the best material is aluminum foil.

I would happily engage in an online discussion with anyone from People for Bikes on this subject. I'm not claiming some high level clandestine effort but they don't seem open to discussing the legislation that they wrote.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
If I was to ask about my local trail use I would ask why it's 20MPH. That's too fast in my opinion. It should be 15MPH.
Many trails have 15mph speed limits. We are not discussing dropping the assist speed to that level just to accommodate the lowest speed limit. Without speedometers how does anyone on a bike know exactly how fast they are going....oh no now you are going to suggest all bikes have speedometers so they will know when they are speeding.
 

rawlus

Active Member
Region
USA
I would happily engage in an online discussion with anyone from People for Bikes on this subject. I'm not claiming some high level clandestine effort but they don't seem open to discussing the legislation that they wrote.
imho people for bikes should not bother to debate or discuss with you as you’ve repeatedly insulted them as spandex know nothings. your mind has been made up for a long time. you’re unable to build consensus.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Petaluma, CA
Good Luck!
 

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MartsEbike

Well-Known Member
Region
Other
I think I understand the argument but I'm not American so.... can't help you directly.

Anyways, I just wanted to say maybe set-up an online petition, draft a statement for people to support and ask for signatories. Try Change.org or some site like that... Those that agree can share it with likeminded people. Then present the results yourself to whoever needs to see it - representatives/media. Asking other people to do this directly rarely works, they're not as knowledgeable of or as invested in the argument as you might be - even if they agree with the basic tenets of it. See if it gets any traction...
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I think I understand the argument but I'm not American so.... can't help you directly.

Anyways, I just wanted to say maybe set-up an online petition, draft a statement for people to support and ask for signatories. Try Change.org or some site like that... Those that agree can share it with likeminded people. Then present the results yourself to whoever needs to see it - representatives/media. Asking other people to do this directly rarely works, they're not as knowledgeable of or as invested in the argument as you might be - even if they agree with the basic tenets of it. See if it gets any traction...
Thanks. I will try your suggestions. Takes a lot of enegy to kind of go it alone on something like this. I have reached out to a number of groups that I thought would have some interest but I don't think I even got a response from most. The overall issue does seem very benign but the federal definition is just a better path forward than allowing 3-class to eventually redefine LSEBs at the federal level. That is when insurance and registration requirements on class 3 would happen.
 

Tars Tarkas

Well-Known Member
Hey moderators! How many threads about the same topic are you allowing? Give us a break!
I haven't been following any of these threads at all, I just kind of stumbled into this one, so I am not speaking to the merits of this general subject at all, but I discovered the Ignore (Thread) button this morning. At the top of the first page of every thread are Ignore and Watch buttons. Click Ignore, and the thread disappears for you.

I will say that I generally prefer under moderation to over doing it. There's a lot going on on the overall forum that I don't care about but I figure someone is probably interested in most of it and may find it helpful....

TT
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
imho people for bikes should not bother to debate or discuss with you as you’ve repeatedly insulted them as spandex know nothings. your mind has been made up for a long time. you’re unable to build consensus.
You mentioned consensus. I can't remember who conducted the survey but 748 bikers were asked about ebike legislation/regulations and 84% stated that they preferred to have one definition for a compliant ebike as a bike. I think most see the class system as nonsense. These days that is a huge majority for any survey.

I do pretty much insult People for Bikes but it originated when I was on the phone asking them about my Polaris Diesel becoming illegal to ride in Colorado when 3-class was adopted and it was legal prior (you can look up the specs on this ebike if you don't believe me this happened). They insisted it was a class 3 ebike but it had a throttle that would assist to around 25mph - I won't use names but she insisted she knew more about the regulations than I did (unlikely). I can assure that if they would not have insulted me on the phone that day I would not be responding in kind on the forums. I did reach out to them at least 2 more times prior to sending in the petition.

I am trying to challenge them to a public discussion on their legislation. I want to know what really drove them to draft it - was it just the lobby money or a real concern that something missing in the federal definition of a LSEB as a bike? It had nothing to do with clarity and safety which is the two reasons them most frequently claim.
 
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PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Petaluma, CA
Let us know how it went for you after you have passed the legislation. Good Luck with that.
"Hey moderators! How many threads about the same topic are you allowing? Give us a break!", @Dallant. I for one am opting out of notifications.
 

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Gordon71

Well-Known Member
You mentioned consensus. I can't remember who conducted the survey but 748 bikers were asked about ebike legislation/regulations and 84% stated that they preferred to have one definition for a compliant ebike as a bike. I think most see the class system as nonsense. These days that is a huge majority for any survey.

What if that definition is a bike with a PAS system where the motor is cutoff at 20MPH?
 

Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
Maybe a thread title such as " You will pay registration and insurance for your Class 3 ebike in US soon Unless..."

That will make people do some research and actually read your very informative posts
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Maybe a thread title such as " You will pay registration and insurance for your Class 3 ebike in US soon Unless..."

That will make people do some research and actually read your very informative posts
Thanks. The funny thing is no one believes that registration and insurance requirements will happen on Class 3 ebikes but if it replaces the federal definition I think it's virtually certain because the same groups behind the effort in Europe are behind the regulatory capture here. I'm a bit shocked that the Europeans have allowed an assist speed limit of just 15mph / 25kph and anything higher is essentially treated as a motorcycle while cars can travel at 300kph on the autobahn (I guess we know where the money and power for legislation resides).

I think what is just beginning to anger me is that we are seeing the country bake under crazy heat most likely due to human impact on the climate and yet some people will work to neuter ebike capability to keep them from getting too many people out of cars. It freaken nuts. The federal definition allows some assist past 20mph but not enough to make LSEBs go outside the traditional speed distribution for bikes and yet some keep saying they are too fast to be bikes. The only difference being a rider doesn't have to be killing themselves to sustain a speed of say 25mph. The world need human scale low cost mobility a hell of lot more than we need the stupid 3 class system that was promoted by People for Bikes who claim to be a bike advocacy group (they were before the merger with BPSA and Larry PIzzi taking over). He chaired 3 class ?model legislation? because he could get money for the organization.
 

Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
I'm a bit shocked that the Europeans have allowed an assist speed limit of just 15mph / 25kph and anything higher is essentially treated as a motorcycle while cars can travel at 300kph on the autobahn (I guess we know where the money and power for legislation resides).


They are a lot more docile over there and well behaved. That's good but with this law they abused people kindness, their pockets 💰 and freedom . But there are also many unregistered Speed Pedelecs as they are called. Is very likley that they will push for this laws in Us too, but when it comes to enforcing i doubt that , it would be doable in the vast land of this country and big cities.

Still the fear factor or just the law itself will get done what this shady corporate groups want UNLESS a change in the present law exactly like you had mentioned is implemented soon !
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
They are a lot more docile over there and well behaved. That's good but with this law they abused people kindness, their pockets 💰 and freedom . But there are also many unregistered Speed Pedelecs as they are called. Is very likley that they will push for this laws in Us too, but when it comes to enforcing i doubt that , it would be doable in the vast land of this country and big cities.

Still the fear factor or just the law itself will get done what this shady corporate groups want UNLESS a change in the present law exactly like you had mentioned is implemented soon !
They are more socially accommodating but their ebike regulations almost go counter to that because they seem to ignore the climate and congestion and accept ebike speed limits that pretty much makes them no better than a traditional bike. They really need more people out of cars as much as we do in the US.

I know that Europe has cracked down on speed hacks to the bikes and the newer models have features that make it virtually impossible to alter the assist limits (as if they don't have more significant issues to focus on). ebikes present a real threat to one of the biggest industries in the world. If people ride 10% they use to drive that is $billions in impact to the auto industry.....then think if 50% was realistic - that would be enough to scare the hell out of auto industry board members who haven't had to think about a real threat for decades. Ebikes are truly the most efficient form of mobility ever created so we should ALL want them to flourish and not allow as you say the "shady corporate groups" to get their way. We should all want one definition of a LSEB and that should be accepted by the states for use as a bike. That will insure the best chance for widespread adoption. I thank you for showing some support as I get beat up a lot on this forum as many think I'm a nut case - I realize whenever you question the status quo you are going to get hammered by those that have drank the koolaid.
 
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rawlus

Active Member
Region
USA
having spent a lot of time in the netherlands, i’m not sure a faster ebike is really needed, transportation is predominantly bike not car, bike traffic is a real thing in city centers and there’s a lot of bike congestion so there’s not really much opportunity to go a lot faster than the speed everyone else is going. helmets are also frowned upon/not used so very fast speeds are probably less recommended.