Statement Regarding Potential CPSC Ebike Law Preemption of 3-class Legislation

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Larry Pizzi chaired the drafting of what People for Bikes calls their "model 3-class ebike legislation" (fancy words for a legislative capture effort). The US actually had the best legislation on ebikes in the world from 2002 and it clearly defined a compliant Low Speed Electric Bicycle as just a bike (that was so states would just use regulate them as a bike using the regulations for bikes that had been in place for decades). Here's what he said:

"In 2002 they were able to effectively get some legislation passed, and a bill signed into law that defined what a low-speed electric bicycle was. It moved from being under the guides of NHTSA to being under the guides of the Consumer Product Safety Commission, and it was defined within the definition of a bicycle."

I can not emphasis enough to everyone that cares about the future adoption of ebikes to express support fo the original federal definition. The 3-class legislation is going to result in insurance and registration requirements on class 3 ebikes (killing their potential) and the tech will be stuck with ridiculously stupid assist cut-offs to control speed.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Hey moderators! How many threads about the same topic are you allowing? Give us a break!
You once commented that no one knows or cares about what a Low Speed Electric Bicycle is even though it's the definition of what is legal for 1st sale in all 50 states.

Why would the limit INFORMATIONAL posts and not the "pictures of your ride" posts? Information harms no one and I've done my best to provide an accurate accounting of the regulatory history so riders can decide if important to keep the original definition or support the 3-class legislation from People for Bikes. When I find something like that statement from Larry Pizzi I'm going to post it because it proves what I've been saying ... that a compliant LSEB was to be use regulated as a bike. This is important for best future adoption of the tech for human scale transportation. We need ebikes to get more people out of cars and the 3-class legislation was intended to limit that (I know people don't believe that but if they studied the history they would understand the regulatory capture effort by People for Bikes and how much money they received to do it).

Isn't it strange that no one from People for Bikes has even chimed in on one of these posts. I've been prodding them to defend the "3-class model legislation" and they will not even comment (that should tell you something).
 
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Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
You once commented that no one knows or cares about what a Low Speed Electric Bicycle is even though it's the definition of what is legal for 1st sale in all 50 states.

Why would the limit INFORMATIONAL posts and not the "pictures of your ride" posts? Information harms no one and I've done my best to provide an accurate accounting of the regulatory history so riders can decide if important to keep the original definition or support the 3-class legislation from People for Bikes. When I find something like that statement from Larry Pizzi I'm going to post it because it proves what I've been saying ... that a compliant LSEB was to be use regulated as a bike. This is important for best future adoption of the tech for human scale transportation. We need ebikes to get more people out of cars and the 3-class legislation was intended to limit that (I know people don't believe that but if they studied the history they would understand the regulatory capture effort by People for Bikes and how much money they received to do it).

Isn't it strange that no one from People for Bikes has even chimed in on one of these posts. I've been prodding them to defend the "3-class model legislation" and they will not even comment (that should tell you something).
Yeah. Same s*it over three threads that you have a woody for and nobody else does. And you aren’t a lobbyist? Go ride your ebike!
 

rawlus

Active Member
Region
USA
where is it we would express support? what exactly are you asking of this community. your posts are not informational at all. they are largely personal rants that question the intelligence of ebike owners and riders. so you’re not batting 100 on making friends and luring people to your cause.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
No I question that people that care about the future of ebikes are not paying attention. The 3-class legislation was paid for by companies that had incentive to slow the adoption of the technology or to give them a competitive advantage.

Funny you say my posts not information yet I've provided the history of the regulations down to the person that wrote or chaired the team drafting them. Mine are not personal rants....yours are because not once have you referenced something of merit and we all have opinions. I do my best to include the background to support my opinion.

Even you agreed that insurance requirements on Class 3 ebikes are likely in the future. That alone will be $billions out of pocket of us riders and I'm trying to prevent that.....and I'm the bad guy. Wow.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I'm asking the community to voice their disagreement with the 3-class system to People for Bikes (flood them with complaint calls). I'm asking the community to question state and local legislators that do not treat all compliant LSEBs as bike for their use laws. If a local land manager or politician takes the position that only class 1 ebikes allowed on a certain trail ask them "WHY?" and push them for an answer that they don't have. See if they are even aware of the federal definition for an Low Speed Electric Bicycle (remember you said you didn't know what that was originally yet it's been around since 2002 and allows all of us to ride without being considered on a motor vehicle so it's a big deal).
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I do speculate that some of the attacks on my posts come from People for Bikes representatives that will not identify themselves as such because clearly I have been trying to push them to engage on this debate on a public forum. If 3-class is the model legislation they claim it is they should have nothing to hide.
 

Gordon71

Well-Known Member
If I was to ask about my local trail use I would ask why it's 20MPH. That's too fast in my opinion. It should be 15MPH.
 

jabberwocky

Well-Known Member
Dude. Jebus. The reason people don't engage is you come across like a seriously unbalanced religious fanatic. Not just a religious fanatic, but one who has never once read the religious book you keep thumping, nor set foot in a church. You have no idea how advocacy works, how infrastructure is managed, who the stakeholders are, you've obviously never put an ounce of sweat into working on access... You've basically convinced yourself that this is The One True Fight, and as soon as you get what you want everything will magically open to ebikes (not just ebikes, but the ebikes you ride). Its just... I kinda don't know how to respond.

The reality is that the whole PFB/CSwhatever thing doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does. Access isn't a single national fight, as nice as that would be. Its about 1,000,000 small fights, happening at various levels of government (from national, to state, to county, to local, engaging various branches of government and private stakeholders at all those levels). As I've said before, it would do you some good to get involved with whatever local cycling advocacy group you have around you and try and build some relationships and see how things actually work.

And just FYI, just because people are rolling their eyes at your crusade doesn't mean they love PFB or the 3 class model legislation or whatever. Numerous people who have engaged you have made that clear. You've just done a really poor job making the case for what you're pushing.

I do speculate that some of the attacks on my posts come from People for Bikes representatives that will not identify themselves as such because clearly I have been trying to push them to engage on this debate on a public forum. If 3-class is the model legislation they claim it is they should have nothing to hide.

LOL! I hear PFB have secret agents who break into your house at night and implant microchips in your fillings. You should wear a faraday cage around your head to block their signals. FYI the best material is aluminum foil.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Dude. Jebus. The reason people don't engage is you come across like a seriously unbalanced religious fanatic. Not just a religious fanatic, but one who has never once read the religious book you keep thumping, nor set foot in a church. You have no idea how advocacy works, how infrastructure is managed, who the stakeholders are, you've obviously never put an ounce of sweat into working on access... You've basically convinced yourself that this is The One True Fight, and as soon as you get what you want everything will magically open to ebikes (not just ebikes, but the ebikes you ride). Its just... I kinda don't know how to respond.

The reality is that the whole PFB/CSwhatever thing doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does. Access isn't a single national fight, as nice as that would be. Its about 1,000,000 small fights, happening at various levels of government (from national, to state, to county, to local, engaging various branches of government and private stakeholders at all those levels). As I've said before, it would do you some good to get involved with whatever local cycling advocacy group you have around you and try and build some relationships and see how things actually work.

And just FYI, just because people are rolling their eyes at your crusade doesn't mean they love PFB or the 3 class model legislation or whatever. Numerous people who have engaged you have made that clear. You've just done a really poor job making the case for what you're pushing.



LOL! I hear PFB have secret agents who break into your house at night and implant microchips in your fillings. You should wear a faraday cage around your head to block their signals. FYI the best material is aluminum foil.
Funny...

I'm not religious at all. I hardly think I'm a fanatic even though I do care a lot about this subject. I bring up the potential interstate commerce issues with 3-class and no one seems to even understand what I'm talking about even though I've made it clear that the CPSC controls what is legal for 1st sale and not the states.

It's only going to be a big deal when insurance comes knocking.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
Dude. Jebus. The reason people don't engage is you come across like a seriously unbalanced religious fanatic. Not just a religious fanatic, but one who has never once read the religious book you keep thumping, nor set foot in a church. You have no idea how advocacy works, how infrastructure is managed, who the stakeholders are, you've obviously never put an ounce of sweat into working on access... You've basically convinced yourself that this is The One True Fight, and as soon as you get what you want everything will magically open to ebikes (not just ebikes, but the ebikes you ride). Its just... I kinda don't know how to respond.

The reality is that the whole PFB/CSwhatever thing doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does. Access isn't a single national fight, as nice as that would be. Its about 1,000,000 small fights, happening at various levels of government (from national, to state, to county, to local, engaging various branches of government and private stakeholders at all those levels). As I've said before, it would do you some good to get involved with whatever local cycling advocacy group you have around you and try and build some relationships and see how things actually work.

And just FYI, just because people are rolling their eyes at your crusade doesn't mean they love PFB or the 3 class model legislation or whatever. Numerous people who have engaged you have made that clear. You've just done a really poor job making the case for what you're pushing.



LOL! I hear PFB have secret agents who break into your house at night and implant microchips in your fillings. You should wear a faraday cage around your head to block their signals. FYI the best material is aluminum foil.

I would happily engage in an online discussion with anyone from People for Bikes on this subject. I'm not claiming some high level clandestine effort but they don't seem open to discussing the legislation that they wrote.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
If I was to ask about my local trail use I would ask why it's 20MPH. That's too fast in my opinion. It should be 15MPH.
Many trails have 15mph speed limits. We are not discussing dropping the assist speed to that level just to accommodate the lowest speed limit. Without speedometers how does anyone on a bike know exactly how fast they are going....oh no now you are going to suggest all bikes have speedometers so they will know when they are speeding.
 

rawlus

Active Member
Region
USA
I would happily engage in an online discussion with anyone from People for Bikes on this subject. I'm not claiming some high level clandestine effort but they don't seem open to discussing the legislation that they wrote.
imho people for bikes should not bother to debate or discuss with you as you’ve repeatedly insulted them as spandex know nothings. your mind has been made up for a long time. you’re unable to build consensus.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Good Luck!
 

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MartsEbike

Well-Known Member
Region
Other
I think I understand the argument but I'm not American so.... can't help you directly.

Anyways, I just wanted to say maybe set-up an online petition, draft a statement for people to support and ask for signatories. Try Change.org or some site like that... Those that agree can share it with likeminded people. Then present the results yourself to whoever needs to see it - representatives/media. Asking other people to do this directly rarely works, they're not as knowledgeable of or as invested in the argument as you might be - even if they agree with the basic tenets of it. See if it gets any traction...
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I think I understand the argument but I'm not American so.... can't help you directly.

Anyways, I just wanted to say maybe set-up an online petition, draft a statement for people to support and ask for signatories. Try Change.org or some site like that... Those that agree can share it with likeminded people. Then present the results yourself to whoever needs to see it - representatives/media. Asking other people to do this directly rarely works, they're not as knowledgeable of or as invested in the argument as you might be - even if they agree with the basic tenets of it. See if it gets any traction...
Thanks. I will try your suggestions. Takes a lot of enegy to kind of go it alone on something like this. I have reached out to a number of groups that I thought would have some interest but I don't think I even got a response from most. The overall issue does seem very benign but the federal definition is just a better path forward than allowing 3-class to eventually redefine LSEBs at the federal level. That is when insurance and registration requirements on class 3 would happen.
 

Tars Tarkas

Well-Known Member
Hey moderators! How many threads about the same topic are you allowing? Give us a break!
I haven't been following any of these threads at all, I just kind of stumbled into this one, so I am not speaking to the merits of this general subject at all, but I discovered the Ignore (Thread) button this morning. At the top of the first page of every thread are Ignore and Watch buttons. Click Ignore, and the thread disappears for you.

I will say that I generally prefer under moderation to over doing it. There's a lot going on on the overall forum that I don't care about but I figure someone is probably interested in most of it and may find it helpful....

TT
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
imho people for bikes should not bother to debate or discuss with you as you’ve repeatedly insulted them as spandex know nothings. your mind has been made up for a long time. you’re unable to build consensus.
You mentioned consensus. I can't remember who conducted the survey but 748 bikers were asked about ebike legislation/regulations and 84% stated that they preferred to have one definition for a compliant ebike as a bike. I think most see the class system as nonsense. These days that is a huge majority for any survey.

I do pretty much insult People for Bikes but it originated when I was on the phone asking them about my Polaris Diesel becoming illegal to ride in Colorado when 3-class was adopted and it was legal prior (you can look up the specs on this ebike if you don't believe me this happened). They insisted it was a class 3 ebike but it had a throttle that would assist to around 25mph - I won't use names but she insisted she knew more about the regulations than I did (unlikely). I can assure that if they would not have insulted me on the phone that day I would not be responding in kind on the forums. I did reach out to them at least 2 more times prior to sending in the petition.

I am trying to challenge them to a public discussion on their legislation. I want to know what really drove them to draft it - was it just the lobby money or a real concern that something missing in the federal definition of a LSEB as a bike? It had nothing to do with clarity and safety which is the two reasons them most frequently claim.
 
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PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Let us know how it went for you after you have passed the legislation. Good Luck with that.
"Hey moderators! How many threads about the same topic are you allowing? Give us a break!", @Dallant. I for one am opting out of notifications.
 

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