Statement Regarding Potential CPSC Ebike Law Preemption of 3-class Legislation

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
So, once again, you are trying to dredge up a dead thread so you can keep going on and on (and on) about this topic that you work so hard to try and drum up interest in.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
So, once again, you are trying to dredge up a dead thread so you can keep going on and on (and on) about this topic that you work so hard to try and drum up interest in.
I think interest is increasing given that the LEVA is pushing to go away from their 2-class system and add allowance for throttles. They want one legal ebike to 50kph that allows them to be effective transportation. We are also seeing how it's not going to be possible to enforce the 3-classes with stickers when the drive mode can simply be changed by the rider anytime.
 

Kayakguy

Well-Known Member
I would be interested to see what an attorney who specializes in such issues thinks of this statement. I'd be even more interested in hearing from people actively involved in advocacy for bicycles about what they think of it.

My own guess is that this statement is unlikely to accomplish anything at all, and if it does accomplish anything it is unlikely to benefit e-bikers.

In the unlikely event that a ruckus was produced, I think the end result would be that regulation of e-bikes would be disconnected from CPSC and move to DOT (probably NHTSA). Again, I find it hard to imagine that many of us would find our lives improved by that change.
There's an old saying: Be careful what you wish for.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
There's an old saying: Be careful what you wish for.
Let me point out some things that may convince you. All ebike / LSEB riders would benefit from just dumping 3-class legislation and accepting HR727 LSEB as a bike which is what was intended. Something everyone must keep in mind is that the feds control what is compliant for 1st sale and this makes great sense because no manufacturer wants to make different versions of a product for every state (there have been some exceptions allow like the needed emissions requirements in California).

Most states require a class 3 ebike to have a speedometer which is not required by HR727 so the CPSC does not require one prior to sale on any LSEB. Note: in my opinion that is a more stringent requirement that should be an interstate commerce violation but if the states define an ebike separately it's OK. Check out the Specialized Turbo Creo (one of the top class 3 ebikes from a major bike OEM) and you'll notice it does not have a speedometer and can be sold legally in every state. It's actually 100% compliant to HR727 so the CPSC has no issue with it but the states that require a speedometer might, but guess what they don't control what is legal for sale so they can only require it to be added for "use." How many riders do you think know they are supposed to install a speedometer to ride legally? How many police know those bikes are supposedly illegal to ride in states that have adopted 3-class? How many shops are allowing customers to test that ebike not realizing they are allowing them to ride an illegal ebike. But it's a compliant LSEB that can actually be ridden legally as a bike (my opinion based on what the CPSC stated and what HR727 states). Keep in mind that one of the changes that took place when ebike jurisdiction was moved from the NHTSA to the CPSC was the removal of the requirement to have rear view mirrors and all 50 states were OK with that.

Dr. Currie's congressional testimony can be viewed by you and everyone on eBR and everyone that wants to judge my claims should do so. He obviously wanted the legislation that he was pushing to pull jurisdiction of ebikes away from the NHTSA to the CPSC so they established a rather strange description of the product as an "low speed electric bicycle" and wanted it to be "use" regulated by the states as a bike. I have personally talked with the lawyer that worked with Dr. Currie for 5+ years to get HR727 passed (it was no small effort and we riders should respect what they accomplished and not be brainwashed by People for Bikes and the 3-class jibberish...again my opinion). I have a copy of some legal paperwork from their effort that their intent was that an LSEB would be the equivalent of a bicycle and not just for the safety regulations but allowed to be used as a bicycle (we have had very well establish traffic / "use" laws for bicycles for decades so we didn't need People for Bikes to push what they claimed was necessary clarification legislation and improved safety (they have no data supporting their safety claims so we should all ignore that).

BIG IMPORTANT NOTE: HR727 passed one vote short of full congressional approval (the states all spoke in 2002 that a compliant LSEB was OK as a bike). Why then did the states allow People for Bikes to lobby to get the 3-class system approved state by state. A true advocasy group would have just lobbied to make sure it was clear that a compliant LSEB was treated same as a bicycle (something they often say they want for all 3-classes but we federally had that for over 10 years before 3-class was brought by the largest auto parts producer in the world to People for Bikes).

Why are ebikes with programming to allow switching between class 1, 2, 3 and even off-road allowed to be legally sold as compliant to HR727? Because they are federally compliant LSEBs but most would argue that 3-class legislation was never intended to allow this but hey the states do not control 1st sale so they are left to figure out how to enforce with those stupid stickers. Good luck with that states. Again no clarity was created with the 3-class legislation while HR727 was crystal clear all the way back to 2002...over 10 years before the 1st state adopted 3-class legislation.
 
Last edited:

The Brick

Member
Region
USA
All bike riders, no matter what they ride, would benefit by having no legislation, no laws, no rules and no regulations.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
All bike riders, no matter what they ride, would benefit by having no legislation, no laws, no rules and no regulations.
I certainly did not suggest that. I just voice my support for HR727 that a compliant LSEB is just the equivalent of a bike for use regulations by the states. No product sold or used in the US (or anywhere else for that matter) is without some regulations. I have no idea if you were just trying to be funny or just attacking my post. I suggest you read HR727 and maybe some information on it's history if you don't think my entry was accurate.
 

The Brick

Member
Region
USA
No. I was serious. Why do e-bikes need speed limits? Why do ebikes need to be legally classified into 3 groups? Etc.

BTW, the statement "No product sold or used in the US (or anywhere else for that matter) is without some regulations" is too broad and somewhat false. And in many cases, it's part of the problem. There are too many laws and regulations. You can't wake up and live your life without breaking some stupid law that you never knew existed.
If I had my way, governments should spend the next 12 years doing nothing but eliminating laws and regulations. And, if it required the elimination of people to do that, so be it.
 

Ken M

Well-Known Member
No. I was serious. Why do e-bikes need speed limits? Why do ebikes need to be legally classified into 3 groups? Etc.

BTW, the statement "No product sold or used in the US (or anywhere else for that matter) is without some regulations" is too broad and somewhat false. And in many cases, it's part of the problem. There are too many laws and regulations. You can't wake up and live your life without breaking some stupid law that you never knew existed.
If I had my way, governments should spend the next 12 years doing nothing but eliminating laws and regulations. And, if it required the elimination of people to do that, so be it.
The problem is you can't even have a sports game without rules / regulations. I'm certainly with you on the crazy amount of regulations we have but we must remember that people do get hurt / killed occasionally so it makes sense to have regulations.

The 3-class regulation was drafted by the largest auto parts producer in the world. I am certain they did not draft it with the best interest of the ebike industry in mind. Sadly this is how a lot of laws are formed...big corporations in effect pull the strings of government.