Stuck thumb throttle almost got me killed

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
So you guys are telling me that if you put pressure on a pedal when stopped, the bike will accelerate under power (amount likely determined by PAS level)?
yes, although i’m not exactly sure what the question is! isn’t that how a bike works?!?

in a pedal assist bike with a cadence sensor, there are a certain number of points around the circle that trigger the sensor. so there’s a small amount of rotation before the motor kicks in. with a torque sensor, the feedback is more immediate but still delayed just a tiny bit, hardly perceptible on the best of them.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
yes, although i’m not exactly sure what the question is! isn’t that how a bike works?!?

in a pedal assist bike with a cadence sensor, there are a certain number of points around the circle that trigger the sensor. so there’s a small amount of rotation before the motor kicks in. with a torque sensor, the feedback is more immediate but still delayed just a tiny bit, hardly perceptible on the best of them.

That answers my question "still delayed just a tiny bit".
 

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
That answers my question "still delayed just a tiny bit".
right, by definition the pedaling triggers the motor, so it must be first 😏

i wouldn’t say the lag is even measurable, certainly measured in hundredths or tenths of a second at most.
 
I agree. New throttle came just now, less than 24 hours. Rize does have good customer service!
Before, and after install, will test brakes response to motor cut when applied. Will certainly do some major safety testing in neighborhood before venturing near normal road cycling area. I can't stress enough how customer support is willing to help......but l still think this particular bike at the least is a lemon.
The real irony is that l have another Rize bike but different model. Have had 2 years, 1400 miles, nary a problem. That's why l purchased new bike last fall. It came just at start of a long miserable winter so could not test and return if unhappy. That is an issue with online buying.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
right, by definition the pedaling triggers the motor, so it must be first 😏

i wouldn’t say the lag is even measurable, certainly measured in hundredths or tenths of a second at most.

Not an idiot... just no experience with this supposedly "premium" system that doesn't come with safety cut offs in the brake handles.

No brake cut offs available, I was wondering how you get on that bike - without setting it in motion with any pressure on the pedal. Now I know. Despite the beating around the bush to arrive at the answer, the bike must move prior to the motor getting power. No big deal. You like it and I'm happy for you.

but I'll be keeping my throttle, thank you very much!
 

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Not an idiot... just no experience with this supposedly "premium" system that doesn't come with safety cut offs in the brake handles.

No brake cut offs available, I was wondering how you get on that bike - without setting it in motion with any pressure on the pedal. Now I know. Despite the beating around the bush to arrive at the answer, the bike must move prior to the motor getting power. No big deal. You like it and I'm happy for you.

but I'll be keeping my throttle, thank you very much!

the reason the bike doesn’t just jerk away suddenly upon starting isn’t the tiny delay before power arrives, it’s the gradual ramp-up of power. this is especially true of sensor systems which deliver motor power based on the combination of torque and cadence. even on max power (which is low compared to ultras etc) just mashing the pedals from a dead stop does not produce a surge of power. there is no need for interaction of brakes and motor with these systems. wouldn’t have even occurred to me! the only cutoff which would be useful on such a mid drive bike is when shifting, to avoid wear to the drivetrain. some systems do have that.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
the reason the bike doesn’t just jerk away suddenly upon starting isn’t the tiny delay before power arrives, it’s the gradual ramp-up of power. this is especially true of sensor systems which deliver motor power based on the combination of torque and cadence. even on max power (which is low compared to ultras etc) just mashing the pedals from a dead stop does not produce a surge of power. there is no need for interaction of brakes and motor with these systems. wouldn’t have even occurred to me! the only cutoff which would be useful on such a mid drive bike is when shifting, to avoid wear to the drivetrain. some systems do have that.
I get the type of acceleration you're talking about. Some might call it "soft start". The motor spools up slowly. My experience is that it also slows gradually, the same way it started, like there's a big capacitor in the circuit if that makes any sense to you.

I'm here to tell you that not everyone appreciates that kind of thing. For instance, the lack of confidence that might inspire when crossing a busy road. Would you prefer that soft start was in play then, with the motor spooling up smoothly, or would you maybe prefer everything the bike has available RIGHT NOW when you tell it to?

What's nice about some systems, the UART based Bafang mid drives for instance, that "soft start" feature is adjustable. Full on, it's pretty aggressive and generates a lot of complaints. Those that take the time to figure that feature out have found it can be set exactly to your personal tastes. Toned down a bit, it's easier on the battery as well.

I could go on, but I think it safe to say each type of system is going to have it's fans - different strokes.
 

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I get the type of acceleration you're talking about. Some might call it "soft start". The motor spools up slowly. My experience is that it also slows gradually, the same way it started, like there's a big capacitor in the circuit if that makes any sense to you.

I'm here to tell you that not everyone appreciates that kind of thing. For instance, the lack of confidence that might inspire when crossing a busy road. Would you prefer that soft start was in play then, with the motor spooling up smoothly, or would you maybe prefer everything the bike has available RIGHT NOW when you tell it to?

yeah; the mid-drives i’m familiar with don’t have a “soft slow” because they have a clutch which disengages instantly when you stop pedaling, or when you turn the motor off.

i have a bike which has a “boost” button which basically overrides the PAS level, but you do still have to be pedaling, so it’s not quite technically a throttle. i do use it when i want to get across a busy street quickly, it’s a useful feature, but it’s not really a safety issue when starting since hopefully nobody STARTS crossing a busy street when there’s traffic 😂😂

… but i’ll admit to using it often to get across a yellow/orange light in a hurry 😊
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Mazovia, Poland
To end the exchange between AHicks and mschwett let me tell you the following:
  • In most of mid-drive motors, there is some "acceleration delay". The system has to be sure you are actually pedalling (not just resting your foot on the pedal) before the motor is engaged. However, that would be counter-productive on e-MTB, where you often need to get the assistance as soon as you have applied the pressure to the pedal. An example: you intend to do a dramatic climb on rocks from the cold start. For this reason, Specialized e-MTBs such as Levo or Kenevo let you define the "acceleration delay" figure in the Mission Control app. If you are about to commute, you set a delay; if you are on a trail, you tell the e-bike to assist you as soon as your foot is touching the pedal.
  • Giant e-MTBs support "Zero Cadence". Meaning, the motor is engaged as soon as the foot is on the pedal. Keep brake levers depressed, set the foot on the pedal and you can feel the motor working. Not the safest for commutes, ideal for trail riding.
  • PAS-only hub-drive motors require that the rear wheel actually rotates before the motor is engaged. It typically happens after a half turn of the cranks. For this reason, the rider is encouraged to downshift before stopping the e-bike to make the ride restart easier.
Except the "Zero Cadence" or "zero acceleration delay" situations, there is no chance the motor would unexpectedly kick-off. And in any case relieving the pressure on the pedal cuts the assistance off. Therefore, neither mid-drive nor PAS-only hub-drive e-bikes need to be equipped with power cut-off brake levers.

My brother is frequently asked where the throttle on his mid-drive motor is. He just smiles, and is pointing at the cranks :)
 
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AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
To end the exchange between AHicks and mschwett let me tell you the following:
  • In most of mid-drive motors, there is some "acceleration delay". The system has to be sure you are actually pedalling (not just resting your foot on the pedal) before the motor is engaged. However, that would be counter-productive on e-MTB, where you often need to get the assistance as soon as you have applied the pressure to the pedal. An example: you intend to do a dramatic climb on rocks from the cold start. For this reason, Specialized e-MTBs such as Levo or Kenevo let you define the "acceleration delay" figure in the Mission Control app. If you are about to commute, you set a delay; if you are on a trail, you tell the e-bike to assist you as soon as your foot is touching the pedal.
  • Giant e-MTBs support "Zero Cadence". Meaning, the motor is engaged as soon as the foot is on the pedal. Keep brake levers depressed, set the foot on the pedal and you can feel the motor working. Not the safest for commutes, ideal for trail riding.
  • PAS-only hub-drive motors require that the rear wheel actually rotates before the motor is engaged. It typically happens after a half turn of the cranks. For this reason, the rider is encouraged to downshift before stopping the e-bike to make the ride restart easier.
Except the "Zero Cadence" or "zero acceleration delay" situations, there is no chance the motor would unexpectedly kick-off. And in any case relieving the pressure on the pedal cuts the assistance off. Therefore, neither mid-drive nor PAS-only hub-drive e-bikes need to be equipped with power cut-off brake levers.

My brother is frequently asked where the throttle on his mid-drive motor is. He just smiles, and is pointing at the cranks :)
Re: "most mid drive motors, there is some acceleration delay", you have to mean "European mid drive motors (the big 4)" as that would not be necessary on bikes with kill switches built into the brake lever assemblies. The rest of that makes some sense (adjustable).

Re: Giant, you're contradicting yourself here. They have kill switches built into the brakes, or they don't. Get your story straight, or help me follow?

Re: PAS-only, your off a bit. Wheel motion has nothing to do with it. It's based on crank motion, and how far that needs to move is either adjustable by the user, or set by the bike manf. Amount could be near nothing or up to 2 turns. 1/2 turn is pretty normal/reasonable.

"Except the "Zero Cadence" or "zero acceleration delay" "
And how would you suggest that situation be handled if you have no kill switches built in? Seems to me like they (kill switches) might be pretty handy riding a bike set up this way? In fact, this is exactly how my bikes ARE set up, but the kill switches make this a complete non event.


"in any case relieving the pressure on the pedal cuts the assistance off. Therefore, neither mid-drive nor PAS-only hub-drive e-bikes need to be equipped with power cut-off brake levers."
This is complete nonsense. Spoken like somebody who has never been on one. I would like to see you climb on a bike with torque sensing, have the motor engage due to your foot applying pressure on the pedal, and you maintain your balance well enough, while having enough wits about you to realize what's happening fast enough to get you foot off the pedal to shut down the power. 🤣 Thinking you could sell tickets to that show. There's only one way for that to end....you, and the bike, are both going down.

You can continue arguing this point until Hell freezes over, but it's not going to change the FACT that China built bikes have built in kill switches for good reason. They weigh next to nothing, add very little in the way of complexity, are not cumbersome, and the safety factor added to a bike equipped with them is immense....

Beyond that, we'll need to agree to disagree.... So far off topic I'm surprised our OP hasn't killed this thread...
 

Neverlost99

Member
I bought a consumer direct from Luna and have been impressed. Store bought bikes were too expensive, but I will diff deeper and buy local next time.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Minnesnowta
I've never seen or heard of one that didn't.
Sadly I had quite a few kit builders that I couldn’t get it threw their heads. Sans cutouts is the stupidest idea, especially with powerful motors like we sold.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Petaluma, CA
With the best ones I build delay is removed and lever cutouts and throttles are not a option. When you play an electric guitar is there a perceptible delay between your action and the production of sound? Not really. It is immediate. Any delay is theoretical. The good ones feel like a bike. An amplified bike. A guy wants me to put a throttle no his bike Monday. That means lag, lack luster feel, and surge. It also cuts off the top end because then it is Class 2 and can only go 20 MPH. Having top end is a safety issue for a commuter. Yes, his bike will have cut-outs which means a jumble of wires on the HB. Ugly. The good ones are like a car. Push foot to go. This is how a HB on a good bike should look. Oh, that twist on the display is for power levels, not a throttle.
1654366619449.jpeg

1654366668133.jpeg
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Mazovia, Poland
Re: "most mid drive motors, there is some acceleration delay", you have to mean "European mid drive motors (the big 4)" as that would not be necessary on bikes with kill switches built into the brake lever assemblies. The rest of that makes some sense (adjustable).
Five major mid-drive motor manufacturers (Bosch E-Bike, Brose, Yamaha, Shimano, and Mahle) do not think brake-lever kill-switches are necessary, as just stopping the pedalling cuts the power to the motor.

Re: Giant, you're contradicting yourself here. They have kill switches built into the brakes, or they don't. Get your story straight, or help me follow?
Giant uses Yamaha motors. There is no lever-brake kill-switch there either. With "Zero Cadence" present, the Giant e-bike rider is recommended to not set their foot on the pedal before really ready to start the ride. In any case, stopping the pedalling makes the motor power cut-off.
Re: PAS-only, your off a bit. Wheel motion has nothing to do with it. It's based on crank motion, and how far that needs to move is either adjustable by the user, or set by the bike manf. Amount could be near nothing or up to 2 turns. 1/2 turn is pretty normal/reasonable.
I might be wrong here. Anyway, the motor kick-off delay is really noticeable on a PAS-only hub-drive motor e-bike. (The half turn of the cranks actually means the e-bike is already in motion).

"Except the "Zero Cadence" or "zero acceleration delay" "
And how would you suggest that situation be handled if you have no kill switches built in? Seems to me like they (kill switches) might be pretty handy riding a bike set up this way? In fact, this is exactly how my bikes ARE set up, but the kill switches make this a complete non event.
Not to set your foot on the pedal, or rest the foot very lightly there, or, as e-MTBers do, keep both feet on the cranks in horizontal position. As I said, the instant motor engagement is found in e-MTBs to enable technical trail riding. Please watch this video:
See that the instant power delivery is a must on an e-MTB.

An MTBer often remains almost stationary with both feed planted on pedals (the cranks remaining horizontal), and he balances the bike with body balancing. Now, to ride up a rock requires instant power delivery. Same as restarting a steep climb in rough terrain.

"in any case relieving the pressure on the pedal cuts the assistance off. Therefore, neither mid-drive nor PAS-only hub-drive e-bikes need to be equipped with power cut-off brake levers."
This is complete nonsense. Spoken like somebody who has never been on one. I would like to see you climb on a bike with torque sensing, have the motor engage due to your foot applying pressure on the pedal, and you maintain your balance well enough, while having enough wits about you to realize what's happening fast enough to get you foot off the pedal to shut down the power. 🤣 Thinking you could sell tickets to that show. There's only one way for that to end....you, and the bike, are both going down.
@AHicks: Do you have issues with understanding simple English? Or never rode a premium mid-drive motor e-bike? I happen to have owned two Specialized e-bikes, one Giant e-MTB, and a Czech PAS-only hub-drive motor e-bike. No pedalling, no power delivery to the motor. (With some noisy motors, you can hear the motor has stopped working and got disengaged by the clutch).

1654369742323.png

You ask me how to restart the ride uphill without the throttle? Learn riding. I stopped to take the top photo and could restart the ride without issues (Specialized Vado 5.0, 53 lb + a heavy rider + cargo).

You talk the Chinese ware. Ya, you need a brake-lever kill-switch with a throttle-operated e-bike. Only don't tell me the Chinese make premium e-bike motors or e-bikes.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
You talk the Chinese ware. Ya, you need a brake-lever kill-switch with a throttle-operated e-bike. Only don't tell me the Chinese make premium e-bike motors or e-bikes.
Your "premium" is my poor excuse for a bike. Let's agree to disagree, shall we?
 

kevinmccune

Active Member
Region
USA
right - that’s why i’m asking if it’s for throttle bikes only. even with PAS front/rear hub drive you would presumably stop pedaling when braking 😂
Have a Friend who disbles PA on every bike He owns, He is scared it will shoot Him ito traffic, had to remind Him about the "cutouts on the brake handles, some you tube builders do not even intall the brake cutout handles on their builds( they should at least use the movement sensing kind) something about loving the throttle and making a "cleaner build", I say "Bull Hockey"! these motor cutoffs are important,I have had problems before because I accidentally had the throttle partially on and wasn't aware of it, these cutoffs are on a similar level to seatbelts in a car. PAS will scoot you several feet if you are not ready.
 

mschwett

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
True,OTH I just meant from a safety standpoint, at least the lower speed can result in a lesser impact.

i must not have ever ridden an electric bike with that type of PAS! on all the ones i've ridden (not too many, maybe a half dozen?) you have to pedal a decent distance around the circle (like 1/4 turn or something) before the motor starts at all, and then it's somewhat gradual. the idea that the bike would go forward when you're NOT pedaling is .... strange to me. but obviously there are different ways to engineer these things.