Suggestions for quality ebike priced <$2000-2500, cargo or similar, sometimes need to carry girlfriend who is ~135 lbs

venexiano

New Member
Hi everyone!!! Looking to buy a second ebike (I now have a Phantom XRS which I will keep for guests) for a nice bike priced <$2000-2500 with the following requirements:

Ideal Requirements:

1) Rainproof (I think nowadays they all are)
2) High-quality hydraulic (or mechanic) disk breaks (safety first!!!)
3) A solid rack in which I can carry my light girlfriend (135 pounds) for short 1-2 miles ride every now and then.
4) Relatively light so I can still pedal home without dying if I run out of battery, I would love carbon fibers but I guess we go out of budget, in that case, let's forget.
5) >15 miles range if no pedaling

Optional requirements

1) Cadence and torque and throttle.
2) Usb chargeable so I don't need to carry a charger if I go over my friends house many miles away? Or are those USB ports only to charge external device such as phone from the battery?

A bike that I am eying with some of those requirements is the RadWagon 4 Electric Cargo Bike. Rack with a max load of 120 pounds (I think my gf's 135 pounds are close enough). But I am fine also with a smaller rack but still sturdy. Any suggestions?
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
when you said "rainproof", I thought you meant this.. like typical Japanese ebike

 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone!!! Looking to buy a second ebike (I now have a Phantom XRS which I will keep for guests) for a nice bike priced <$2000-2500 with the following requirements:

Ideal Requirements:

1) Rainproof (I think nowadays they all are)
2) High-quality hydraulic (or mechanic) disk breaks (safety first!!!)
3) A solid rack in which I can carry my light girlfriend (135 pounds) for short 1-2 miles ride every now and then.
4) Relatively light so I can still pedal home without dying if I run out of battery, I would love carbon fibers but I guess we go out of budget, in that case, let's forget.
5) >15 miles range if no pedaling

Optional requirements

1) Cadence and torque and throttle.
2) Usb chargeable so I don't need to carry a charger if I go over my friends house many miles away? Or are those USB ports only to charge external device such as phone from the battery?

A bike that I am eying with some of those requirements is the RadWagon 4 Electric Cargo Bike. Rack with a max load of 120 pounds (I think my gf's 135 pounds are close enough). But I am fine also with a smaller rack but still sturdy. Any suggestions?

I think Eunorau G20 is the best bet.
Just upgrade the brakes to hydraulic, there are two options available. Make sure to ask them if it's compatible with G20.

Eunorau G20
48V 31Ah (14Ah + 17Ah) battery

Bolton also sells the G20 under the name "Hercules"

Bolton Hercules
48V 14Ah (no dual battery option, but I think it's possible?)
 
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venexiano

New Member
Thank you TImpo, how is that diffenent from the: RadWagon 4 Electric Cargo Bike? Also, is there any other bike (non cargo) with a rack that withstands ~120-130 lbs? Those cargo bikes are just so ugly!
 

RunForTheHills

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
You could let the girlfriend ride the Phantom XRS and get a non cargo bike. Most bike racks are rated at around 40-50lbs, which is plenty for grocery trips or even bicycle touring.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Thank you TImpo, how is that diffenent from the: RadWagon 4 Electric Cargo Bike? Also, is there any other bike (non cargo) with a rack that withstands ~120-130 lbs? Those cargo bikes are just so ugly!
The biggest difference is that, RadWagon has hub drive and Eunorau has mid drive.
You can still pedal mid drive bike like a normal bicycle, whereas if you're trying to ride a hub drive bike without power, it's a big dead weight on rear hub, good luck with that.

I specifically recommended Eunorau because you want to be able to pedal without power.
In addition, if you want to, you could upgrade it to 48V 31Ah (that's a lot of range) and RadWagon only offers 48V 14Ah.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Thank you TImpo, how is that diffenent from the: RadWagon 4 Electric Cargo Bike? Also, is there any other bike (non cargo) with a rack that withstands ~120-130 lbs? Those cargo bikes are just so ugly!
Also, I don't know what you mean by non-cargo, because some ebikes are in grey area.
Is RadRunner non-cargo to you?

They advertise it as utility bike, not as cargo bike.
New Seattle e-bike is like a moped without the racket | The Seattle Times
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Juiced Scrambler & Juiced HyperScrambler 2

However, unlike RadRunner, I don't see any footpegs for the passenger.
It wont be a pleasant ride for the passenger.

 

ElevenAD

Well-Known Member
these are non cargo also if your planning to carry 2 people i think power is key! thats why i would go with an Ariel Rider, either a D-Class or a Grizzly! those bikes will carry2 riders the way most bikes carry one and when your riding solo just turn down the PAS!

he rides with her tandem on his Grizzly.
Thank you TImpo, how is that diffenent from the: RadWagon 4 Electric Cargo Bike? Also, is there any other bike (non cargo) with a rack that withstands ~120-130 lbs? Those cargo bikes are just so ugly!
 

venexiano

New Member
Mmm I never thought about the fact that middrive is easier to carry on a dead battery than rear hub motor. I guess that is the reason why I barely move with my Phantom XRS when battery is dead. I feel like enormous friction when I pedal. What is the mechanic explanation for that? I don't get it. The weight of the motor should be similar.
 

ElevenAD

Well-Known Member
Mmm I never thought about the fact that middrive is easier to carry on a dead battery than rear hub motor. I guess that is the reason why I barely move with my Phantom XRS when battery is dead. I feel like enormous friction when I pedal. What is the mechanic explanation for that? I don't get it. The weight of the motor should be similar.
two different animals, when you no power pedal a hub motor your legs are spinning the entire weight of that motor along with the wheel,with an unpowered middrive your just spinning some gears but not the full weight of the motor........i think?
 

venexiano

New Member
No you do not me convince me. I don't think it is related to the weight of the motor. However, I'm happy if you send me a link where this is discussed in depth by experts and you prove me wrong.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
No you do not me convince me. I don't think it is related to the weight of the motor. However, I'm happy if you send me a link where this is discussed in depth by experts and you prove me wrong.
I posted this story about visiting a motorcycle show on other thread, but I'll post this again.

Back in the day, I went to this motorcycle show and Kawasaki engineer gave us a presentation on weight reduction.

What he explained to us was that, total weight does NOT give you the whole story, at all.
WHERE you are cutting weights is very important, not just HOW MUCH weight you're cutting.

He was giving us examples of what he explained as "moving components", basically, if you are reducing weights from moving components such as crankshaft, cam shaft, sprockets, brake rotors, wheels, chains, etc... that would be far more important than shaving weights from frame.

Here's an example, if you carry a 10 lb backpack (and make sure it doesn't move around and keep it tight to your body), can you still walk and run normally?
Yes you can, you will very likely be able to run and walk normally with 10 lb backpack.

However, what if you carry 10 lb weight on "moving component"? For example, can you run or walk normally by wearing 10 lb shoes?
No, you will have a very difficult time walking / running.

Again, I'm not an engineer, but apparently these things are called "Rotational Mass" , "Moment of Inertia", etc. in engineering.

If I remember correctly, adding weight on rims will affect the acceleration by (approximately) 10 times compare to carrying weight normally.
This is exactly why installing wheels that are 5 lbs lighter on motorcycles can have dramatic difference in acceleration.
However, if you shave 5 lbs off motorcycle from fairings, seat, frame, etc.. you won't notice any difference.

In addition, just because it is a moving component, not all moving components will give you the same effect.
For example, what if you cut 30g from tire vs 30g from hub or brake disc?
You will see bigger effect on cutting down weight on tire (or rim for that matter) because of leverage.

Anyways, where you cut down the weight plays a big role.

To answer your question, the motor in rear hub is a DEAD WEIGHT that your legs need to propel, however if you have a mid drive, the motor is attached to the frame directly, which has nothing to do with "rotational mass".
So this is why mid drive ebikes feel substantially lighter when unpowered.
 

JASmith

Member
Region
USA
What you are explaining can be reproduced and also dismissed easily in your home using a spinning office chair.

Stick your legs out and have your SO spin you and see how fast she can spin you from a stop.

Now do the same resting some kind of weight on your feet, and you'll see it just got harder to spin you.

Now tuck your feet under your butt or close to the axis of rotation at least and do the same, much easier.

Lastly put that same weight in your lap, and you'll see it seems to make no difference.

So unless the hub motor has a huge diameter, the weight really shouldn't matter because its so close to the axis of rotation to be a non-issue.

Especially if you go with a geared hub motor which should be pretty small in diameter compared to a direct drive hub motor.

Speaking of geared vs direct drive, the geared should freewheel when off but the direct drive should provide some resistance from the magnets, and its likely that drag that makes direct drive ebikes feel harder to peddle without power.
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
"Suggestions for quality ebike priced <$2000-2500"
"Quality" and "<$2000-2500" are mutually exclusive.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
What you are explaining can be reproduced and also dismissed easily in your home using a spinning office chair.

Stick your legs out and have your SO spin you and see how fast she can spin you from a stop.

Now do the same resting some kind of weight on your feet, and you'll see it just got harder to spin you.

Now tuck your feet under your butt or close to the axis of rotation at least and do the same, much easier.

Lastly put that same weight in your lap, and you'll see it seems to make no difference.

So unless the hub motor has a huge diameter, the weight really shouldn't matter because its so close to the axis of rotation to be a non-issue.

Especially if you go with a geared hub motor which should be pretty small in diameter compared to a direct drive hub motor.

Speaking of geared vs direct drive, the geared should freewheel when off but the direct drive should provide some resistance from the magnets, and its likely that drag that makes direct drive ebikes feel harder to peddle without power.
I would like to respond to your comment, "So unless the hub motor has a huge diameter, the weight really shouldn't matter because its so close to the axis of rotation to be a non-issue."

With all the due respect, I am not sure if you actually know what you're talking about.
Have you ever lifted the Bafang G060 motor itself?

It's HEAVY... and conventionally, bicycle rear hub is LIGHT.
oh, did I mentioned it was HEAVY.

Because basically you're replacing this

DT Swiss - 350 Rear 6 Bolt – Hub Cycles

With this
bafang bf rmg06 off 74% - www.daralnahda.com
 
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Timpo

Well-Known Member
Sorry but I'm not convinced.

From my personal experience, I could tell a HUGE difference.

Rotating that heavy dead weight takes a lot more energy than simple bicycle rear hub.
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Okay so apparently, typical bicycle rear hub weighs 200g to 450g.
That Bafang motor weighs 4,600g.

Also it does have much larger diameter than bicycle hub.
 

JASmith

Member
Region
USA
I was just explaining a basic physics concept that the rotational inertia (resistance to spinning up or down) of any system equals the mass times the square of the distance to the axis of rotation. So as you can see from the equation, while mass matters (and remember you're not spinning the entire mass of that hub as the stator is stationary and likely the heaviest component), it matters a lot less when close to the axis of rotation.

I wasn't doubting there's resistance, but that its likely magnetic resistance that you're experiencing. Its how magnetic resistance stationary bicycles function, and they can give you a real workout:
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
I was just explaining a basic physics concept that the rotational inertia (resistance to spinning up or down) of any system equals the mass times the square of the distance to the axis of rotation. So as you can see from the equation, while mass matters (and remember you're not spinning the entire mass of that hub as the stator is stationary and likely the heaviest component), it matters a lot less when close to the axis of rotation.

I wasn't doubting there's resistance, but that its likely magnetic resistance that you're experiencing. Its how magnetic resistance stationary bicycles function, and they can give you a real workout:
There won't be magnetic resistance on geared hub motor.
There's a clutch mechanism to make it "freewheel", which can benefit when costing, etc.

There's a hub motor called direct hub motor, which will give you magnetic resistance.


And I was referring to the comment having a weight is "non-issue" and "shouldn't matter", sorry not trying to be difficult, but I just couldn't let it slide because of my personal experience how heavy those motors were.

Also, there's one criticism I'd make about your spinning office chair example.
Your example was using the same person, except tucking knees.
The better example would be, try to spin a person (or chair combined) that weighs 10x as much.
With slightly larger diameter.

I bet spinning 60 lb vs 600 lb, or 80 lb vs 800 lb won't be the same.

Having ridden both mid drive and hub drive ebikes... in my experience (somebody might prove me wrong), mid drive ebikes can be ridden like a normal bicycle when electric power is off, whereas I always STRUGGLE to pedal hub motor ebikes.
 
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