SuperDelite 2020 Rohloff HS Issues & Support

marcparnes

Active Member
If you want to post some additional pictures from various positions I will compare them to mine if that helps. I'm sure if we had the bikes side by side we'd find it pretty fast.

Marc
 

marcparnes

Active Member
Looks like they call it a spider assembly.

BOSCH GEN4 SPIDER ASSEMBLY CDX​

Product Line:CDX
Product Type:Front Sprockets
Fitment:Bosch GEN4
Finish / Color:Matte Black
Part Number:See eBike Integration Manual
Tooth Count:39, 42, 46, 48, 50, 55, 60, 63
Pitch:11
Material:Aluminum
Notes:ISO compliant guard available except 39T not available with guard on Di2 belt line.
* Photos may be representative only.
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
here are some additional pictures

1) Notice the frayed edges of the belt and the distinct line down the middle of the left half of the belt, where the rear sprocket tried to carve a new center line when the belt hopped off. You can also see how close (touching) the chainring is to the tensioner flange. Again, Propel gave it to me like this twice
1.jpg


2) View of the spider
2.jpg


3) Tensioner and chainring, notice also, how close the chainring guard is to the tensioner pivot.
3.jpg


Please let me know if there are better angles that can help us diagnose, thanks all for your help thus far!!!

Not to add to my laundry list but I watched Citrus Cycle's recent Youtube post on the Nevo 3 and was perplexed when he showed the bike force registering on the Nyon display while the brakes were applied. Just wondering if this is standard for all displays? My kiosk does not show any registered force to the pedals unless the bike is in motion.

-Steven
 
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dblhelix

Well-Known Member
here are some additional pictures

1) Notice the frayed edges of the belt and the distinct line down the middle of the left half of the belt, where the rear sprocket tried to carve a new center line when the belt hopped off. You can also see how close (touching) the chainring is to the tensioner flange. Again, Propel gave it to me like this twice
View attachment 77672

2) View of the spiderView attachment 77676

3) Tensioner and chainring, notice also, how close the chainring guard is to the tensioner pivot. View attachment 77677

Please let me know if there are better angles that can help us diagnose, thanks all for your help thus far!!!

Not to add to my laundry list but I watched Citrus Cycle's recent Youtube post on the Nevo 3 and was perplexed when he showed the bike force registering on the Nyon display while the brakes were applied. Just wondering if this is standard for all displays? My kiosk does not show any registered force to the pedals unless the bike is in motion.

-Steven
I have had the same experience at Propel. I can see something is worn/needs replacing and am told it’s fine the way it is.

Re: Nyon — was it old or new Nyon? What was the specific parameter? Like a frictional force? I will ck my Nyon. Just realized, it’s probably related to ABS, which does not apply to us.
 
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marcparnes

Active Member
3) Tensioner and chainring, notice also, how close the chainring guard is to the tensioner pivot.

-Steven
Mine is the same, maybe 1-2 mm clearance. Is it possible to take a picture from above showing the backside of the spider and the shaft where it enters the motor? I measured from the edge of the belt to the frame at the spot in the photo and it is exactly 10 mm. Can you measure yours?
 

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webcurl

Well-Known Member
I was thinking the same thing as far as overall alignment, the back wheel has done some weird things over the months, just the other day I noticed the disc brake side "guide square" was almost out of its "well" (see picture of proper alignment), I had to undo the axel and reseat, not sure how this happens while riding on pavement mostly. Overall while braking hard I feel the bike torque/twist like wringing out a rag, it wants to go down. I've explained this numerous times to the bike shop and they look at me like I'm crazy.
I've experienced something similar on my SuperCharger GX Rohloff (non Full Suspension) whilst the QR has been tight, and in my case it was the belt tensioning lock bolts were not tight (2 each side). And they or maybe just one loosen themselves periodically, just got a Torque wrench so i'll be 'learning' what the appropriate (for SuperCharger) 15Nm feels like.
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
I have had the same experience at Propel. I can see something is worn/needs replacing and am told it’s fine the way it is.

Re: Nyon — was it old or new Nyon? What was the specific parameter? Like a frictional force? I will ck my Nyon.
new Nyon, and I'm referring to the "My Power" metric displayed on both the new Nyon and my Kiox. All in all wondering if a sensor is broken and why I am not getting live feedback while the bike is still, unlike the Citrus video of the new Nevo 3.
Mine is the same, maybe 1-2 mm clearance. Is it possible to take a picture from above showing the backside of the spider and the shaft where it enters the motor? I measured from the edge of the belt to the frame at the spot in the photo and it is exactly 10 mm. Can you measure yours?
Here's that angle, mine is also about 10mm from the frame.

20210127_233656.jpg

and the tensioner axel, note the silver bushing on the frame side, this is pushing the tensioner assembly rightward against the chainring.
20210127_233756.jpg
 

marcparnes

Active Member
So I measured the distance between the tensioner and the black convex piece. It is about 3.5 mm. And yours?
spacer.JPG

Marc
 

dblhelix

Well-Known Member
My LBS has the bike and is looking into it, again. Hopefully this and all the other issues get fixed, will update when I hear back
That’s really good news.

I appreciate that @JVBulman and @marcparnes took the time to help out with their knowledge/reference images.

Many people here know that I have been a Propel customer/fan since 2017. By and large, it has been an excellent experience. Unfortunately, some situations developed that strained even the strongest of relationships. I am happy to report that a resolution is in sight.
 

SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
I received my bike back and my LBS is not that equipped to actually remedy problems on the spot. They were able to corroborate my issues which included repeated tensioner wear, bike performance past 22mph and front wheel alignment issues. They admitted the wheel alignment was due to a known faulty stem component where it was impossible to torque the pinch-bolts adequately but assured me I now have the new design component and they can torque the bolts adequately now. However, the best they can do for the other issues is take pictures and diagnostics and send to Bosch/R&M for further assistance. Bosch/R&M has agreed to do a motor swap and has said error 550 results from water damage due to inferior cable o-rings that they used in 1st run gen 4 bikes. It took 3+ weeks to assess this as there was an email communication problem at R&M. During a yet to be scheduled motor-swap, the bike will be further dismantled to see where the other issues stem from. Overall, I'm convinced there is a severe misalignment somewhere, perhaps the frame that has precipitated the bulk if not all of my issues and pain (2 low speed falls at ~15mph from the bikes tendency to fall hard, down and to the left while riding, road rash was unbelievably painful!!)

I'm not mad at Propel, had a great exchange with the staff on my last visit and have pledged to work with them (and this community) to help fill in the gaps R&M's business model unfortunately causes. Just a bit of buyers remorse as having already spent $12K, no further amount of money can give back the amount of time I've spent getting the bike serviced and my constant lack of faith and trust in the vehicle when riding. I bought the best to get rid of any such anxiety but sadly that's becoming less and less possible in todays world; everything is marketing & PR, inflated pricing and hype!
 

marcparnes

Active Member
This surely has been discussed before but it is such a shame that R&M insists on using this type of business model that totally insulates them from interaction with their customers. In relying primarily on their local sellers and email, many problems that could be simply and quickly taken care of end up becoming proverbial mountains out of mole hills only because they end up getting mishandled and drawn out. If they at least had a technical office over here that could liaison directly with their US customers, sellers and German factories many of these nagging problems would get handled before they ever even made it into the public domain. To spend this much money and then have to hassle over technical issues like this seems ridiculous. I could see it being this way if we were talking about $1500 Chinese bikes but we're not. I hope R&M recognizes the issue and its potential effect on their overall future and does something about it at some point. Just my $.02 worth.

Marc
 

dblhelix

Well-Known Member
This surely has been discussed before but it is such a shame that R&M insists on using this type of business model that totally insulates them from interaction with their customers. In relying primarily on their local sellers and email, many problems that could be simply and quickly taken care of end up becoming proverbial mountains out of mole hills only because they end up getting mishandled and drawn out. If they at least had a technical office over here that could liaison directly with their US customers, sellers and German factories many of these nagging problems would get handled before they ever even made it into the public domain. To spend this much money and then have to hassle over technical issues like this seems ridiculous. I could see it being this way if we were talking about $1500 Chinese bikes but we're not. I hope R&M recognizes the issue and its potential effect on their overall future and does something about it at some point. Just my $.02 worth.

Marc
Co-sign.

I think they are rushing tech to market w/o adequate QC. I can appreciate that it’s tough being the leader. You spend all of the blood, sweat & tears just to see a lot of imitators who can then afford to do it cheaper after you did the R&D. It’s a tough position, but I can’t help but think this is where brand loyalty would go a long way, which R&M simply does not cultivate.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Co-sign.

I think they are rushing tech to market w/o adequate QC. I can appreciate that it’s tough being the leader. You spend all of the blood, sweat & tears just to see a lot of imitators who can then afford to do it cheaper after you did the R&D. It’s a tough position, but I can’t help but think this is where brand loyalty would go a long way, which R&M simply does not cultivate.
As an enthusiastic owner and fan of R&M bikes, I cannot disagree with any of this. My 2018 Delite Mountain has been as good and reliable bike, E or otherwise, as I have ever owned and is near the top of my ATF list. My 2019 Homage Rohloff HS (1st year with e-14 and power tube) spent 3 months back in the shop during its first year. I sold it in good working order after all the problems were fixed.

One of the reasons many of us like R&M is that they embrace new gear sooner than most...think Rohloff E-14, Gates Carbon Belts, Bosch ABS, et. It is not unusual for year one productions of new models of anything equipped with new tech to experience issues in the 1st production year. Essentially a company relies on its users to help with beta testing of new production items in year one. Riese and Muller does not cultivate the kind of relationship with its product users to make this partnership work successfully. In fact they really do avoid us. So here we are.

The most recent bike I purchased was a Trek Allant+9.9S in its first production year. I had a recurrent issue with a failing Shimano microspline rear hub. There were several others here on EMR and I am sure elsewhere, who had the same issue. The local Trek shop was super helpful, setting me up with a loaner wheel off a stock bike to keep me riding while it was resolved. Then a customer relations guy with corporate got in touch and helped arrange a swap for a new Onyx Sprague Clutch Hub, a $450 retail item compared with about $125 for the stock Shimano. He followed through coordinated with Onyx the LBS and me with timely and accurate communications. They charged me $45 to lace it into the wheel, adding some really great enhancements to an already stellar drive train. There are some issues with the headlight that have yet to be resolved but based on my experience with the hub, I am content to wait know that they will get back to me when they have a solution,

My guess is that my next bike will probably be a Trek.
 

marcparnes

Active Member
As an enthusiastic owner and fan of R&M bikes, I cannot disagree with any of this. My 2018 Delite Mountain has been as good and reliable bike, E or otherwise, as I have ever owned and is near the top of my ATF list. My 2019 Homage Rohloff HS (1st year with e-14 and power tube) spent 3 months back in the shop during its first year. I sold it in good working order after all the problems were fixed.

One of the reasons many of us like R&M is that they embrace new gear sooner than most...think Rohloff E-14, Gates Carbon Belts, Bosch ABS, et. It is not unusual for year one productions of new models of anything equipped with new tech to experience issues in the 1st production year. Essentially a company relies on its users to help with beta testing of new production items in year one. Riese and Muller does not cultivate the kind of relationship with its product users to make this partnership work successfully. In fact they really do avoid us. So here we are.

The most recent bike I purchased was a Trek Allant+9.9S in its first production year. I had a recurrent issue with a failing Shimano microspline rear hub. There were several others here on EMR and I am sure elsewhere, who had the same issue. The local Trek shop was super helpful, setting me up with a loaner wheel off a stock bike to keep me riding while it was resolved. Then a customer relations guy with corporate got in touch and helped arrange a swap for a new Onyx Sprague Clutch Hub, a $450 retail item compared with about $125 for the stock Shimano. He followed through coordinated with Onyx the LBS and me with timely and accurate communications. They charged me $45 to lace it into the wheel, adding some really great enhancements to an already stellar drive train. There are some issues with the headlight that have yet to be resolved but based on my experience with the hub, I am content to wait know that they will get back to me when they have a solution,

My guess is that my next bike will probably be a Trek.
Now THATS what I'm talking about. R&M, are you listening???

Marc
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Now THATS what I'm talking about. R&M, are you listening???

Marche
Unfortunately, probably not. Yes the R&M guy for North America that lives and works in Germany was here on EBR for a short while but he did nothing to make friends or influence anyone. I have yet to see any R&M player participating in our R&M Facebook group. With almost 2,000 R&M owners or prospective owners you would think they might want to help build some brand loyalty. Personally I find their absence discourages it.
 

AleksR

Active Member
Greetings, I recently encountered a few issues after receiving a 550 error during a light drizzle. Firstly, I know no ebike is "waterproof" but I presume this tank of a bike can handle a light drizzle. During the incident the lights, motor and transmission were not responding to input but the screen worked. I had to walk the bike home a few miles in light rain. Once home the error continued whenever I turned on the bike for a few hours, then it went away. I hadn't ridden the bike in the rain again but did do some off-roading and splashed through a large puddle and the error returned. It resolved itself in a few minutes but once home I needed to clean the mud off the bike. Using some Mud-Off and a bucket of water and brush, I washed the bike (no pressure washer and kept the bike right-side-up) and started getting the 550 Error again. I scheduled an appointment at the bike shop I purchased the bike from and upon pickup of the bike, just received a printout of a few diagnostic errors, none of which were the 550 error and no explanation or further analysis, just that they reached out to R&M for an explanation. This was more than 2 weeks ago!

This brings me to my biggest concern with the bike, my local bike shop is as clueless as I am when it comes to troubleshooting this bike. Spending $12K USD, one expects a higher than average service level but for as long as I've owned it, any issue I've faced has been met with a best-guess approach to servicing and rarely solving my bike's issues. Young kids that may be decent regular bike "mechanics" but barely understand the complexity of my R&M, from stripping bolts, to not being able to fix my turn lock problem, to not understanding the odd ride metrics the app/kiox was reporting, to replacing a part that was being worn away by the chainring (new part is still being worn away), nothing has been straight forward with owning this vehicle. I say vehicle and not bicycle as to impart that at almost 30 mph, an extra concern, knowledge and care needs to be exercised to ensure rider safety. I'm not sure R&M thought this through in their business model OR my LBS is just that inexperienced.

Lastly, on recent rides, I noticed the bike seems to provide less and less assistance past 24/25 mph and it has become almost impossible to reach 28 on anything but slightly downhill paved roads. I borrowed a friends Garmin GPS device and mounted my phone to the handlebars to compare speed readings to the kiox display. To further complicate things, my kiox display is approximately 2.5 mph faster than both my phone and the garmin device, showing 28mph and cutting off assist while the other devices display speeds of 25-26mph. I've messed with wheel circumference settings and tried riding with a single battery to lessen weight but it still seems much slower than it used to be. Moreover, got passed by someone on a Gazelle T10 the other day, while trying my hardest to get to and maintain top speed, something is wrong.

Normally, with all the issues I'm facing, I'd be optimistic that with proper analysis and troubleshooting a solution could be discovered BUT given my experiences with my local bike shop, I doubt this will be easily remedied. We've all heard the terms "SUV, Range Rover, Mercedes Benz, even Rolls Royce" when describing the SuperDelite, just wish the accompanying support/expertise lived up to that same heritage.

I have a few other complaints like the front wheel being way to easy to turn out of alignment with the handlebars but feel like a maniac even bringing that up to my bike shop given our history. I beseech this community and fellow 2020/21 SuperDelite owners to help me troubleshoot these issues if possible and look forward to interacting.
Never had a problem on over 2500 miles of my supercharger2 with derailer. And I ride it like a mountain bike.
 
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SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
Never had a problem on over 4,000 miles of my supercharger2 with derailer. And I ride it like a mountain bike.
thanks for sharing, but this thread was started to call out particular problems on R&M bikes and the overall workflow problems customers and shops face when troubleshooting R&M products. I hope you continue to have no problems for many miles ahead!
 
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SteveBorough

Active Member
Region
USA
So, I've had a loaner Delite HS Enviolo for about 2 weeks (thanks LBS!) as the shop works on replacing my motor and figuring out the tensioner wear issue, and it is a night and day experience. I will post ride metric as soon as I figure out how to retrieve them from the smartphone hub and compare to my SuperDelite HS Rohloff but its a whole new world of performance. With little effort, on Turbo, I can get to 28mph and beyond, even peaked at 33 mph the other day with some hard pedaling. This wasn't possible on my Superdelite

To manage my expectations, I am wondering whether my bike is just a lemon or is the weight/transmission combination of my +$4K bike inferior when it comes to non-distance metrics? Does anyone have comparison experience with the 2020 Super/Delite HS variants? Even with 1 battery (I have a dummy battery cover, for similar weight comparison) I was not getting anywhere near the assistance/speed on my bike. So disheartening, plus its been almost 2 months since I reported the initial 550 Error and the shop will need my bike for an additional 2 weeks. This R&M support logistics model needs to change.