THE NEXT BREAKTHROUGH IN EBIKES- SONDORS STYLE

I think its safe to say, that the sondors ebike for under $1000 , has been a huge success so far { despite some shipping delays and invalid performance claims] . Sondors deserves credit for bringing a great looking ebike to the masses , in a ready to ride format , at a lower price then anyone else with its specs. Unfortunately , it had several limitations , like only 1 size , low capacity battery , only 36 volt battery, low wattage motor, only 1 gear , etc.

IMHO, the next big step forward in ebikes , is for someone like Sondors to bring to market, another great looking fatbike with the following options :

1. offer 3 sizes { S-M-L}
2. use a 1000 watt motor
3. use a 48 volt battery that is 20 A/H , and mount the battery neatly within the center of the ebike { like sondors has } and not on a rear rack above the rear tire
4. make the ebike 7 speed cassette
5. have front suspension
6. have seatpost suspension
7. have built in LED headlight/tail-light
8 . include a generic voltage readout LCD display, so riders know exactly how much voltage is left in their batterys while riding.
9. have a controller that can handle up to 40 amps

and bring this to market for under $2000 . I build ebikes, and I know this can be done , and still allow good profits . These upgrades are not that much more expensive then what the SONDORs EBIKE IS OFFERING AT $799 ......In fact, the most expensive upgrade in the above list, would possibly be the higher capacity battery, which should only increase production costs by $125 .....and the front suspension forks which would be about another $75 . The other upgrades , all together, would probably run about $300 more...so in total, we are looking at around $500 in total upgrades, from what the sondors ebike was offering for $799 shipped....so you would now have a upgraded, more powerful ebike with suspension , that costs $500 more to build, then the current sondors ebike , and sell it around a $1500- $1999 price point, and be able to make decent profit. This type of ebike/fatbike , would have the ability to appeal to ALL types of riders, regardless of their weight , and give a much better ride , better top speed, and twice the distance travelled. Theres no need to make this ebike offering have a bunch of fancy options { like Bluetooth programming, leather grips , alarm systems, 21 speeds, etc} ....Keep it simple , good looking , but with better power/ battery capacity and front suspension and a simple 7 gear cassette

The time is drawing near, for someone to compete with these yuppie , overpriced ebike companies who are selling ebikes with 10 ah batterys and 36volt systems, for $4000.
 
FWIW...I can build the above electric fatbike , in my garage, by purchasing all the individual components myself , for around $1400.....but outsourcing it to a Chinese manufacturer who would be building thousands of them at wholesale , should bring he production costs down to around the $800 area....so selling it t $1800 , still allows a nice profit margin.
 

Bike_On

Well-Known Member
Slow, underpowered bikes (Sondors) can get away with cheap/typical bike components because they go typical speeds. (10-20mph)

Upgrade to 1000W , 48V w/ 40 amp controller and you get typical 25-30mph speeds, and a whole new level of component quality and ruggedness.

You need a beefy frame, quality hydraulic disk brakes (180 or larger), and a solid air suspension fork.

How much do you think a 1000W hub wheel will weight with rim/tire/cassette/motor? 20-25lbs? The unsprung weight in the rear hub wheel can be unstable at higher speeds. Seat suspension is not designed for the impulse force of 25lbs+30lb bike shooting vertical at 25mph. Seat post suspension like 25lb bikes going 15 mph. So you really need a beefy rear suspension.

Congratulations, you have just re-invented the Stealth Fighter.. and it ain't selling for $1800.
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
http://www.voltbike.ca/interceptor.html

What you describe is pretty close to this bike, though the battery is way short of a kWh. Dogman had an interesting review of a 1000 watt hour 48v pack, from China, he bought for $400. That's over on Endless Sphere.

You would need a nice design to get the brakes and suspension, plus the big battery. When you were done you would have an ebike that blows a big hole in the new California regs, probably continuing a trend that is leaving it DOA. Before it has passed.
 

PowerMe

Well-Known Member
1,000 watts is above the 750 watt limit many jurisdictions have enacted, so it would have to match what is legal. 500 watts may be plenty for the type of rider this would appeal to. Couple it with a 48v battery with >12ah and that might be a winning combo.
 
Slow, underpowered bikes (Sondors) can get away with cheap/typical bike components because they go typical speeds. (10-20mph)

Upgrade to 1000W , 48V w/ 40 amp controller and you get typical 25-30mph speeds, and a whole new level of component quality and ruggedness.

You need a beefy frame, quality hydraulic disk brakes (180 or larger), and a solid air suspension fork.

How much do you think a 1000W hub wheel will weight with rim/tire/cassette/motor? 20-25lbs? The unsprung weight in the rear hub wheel can be unstable at higher speeds. Seat suspension is not designed for the impulse force of 25lbs+30lb bike shooting vertical at 25mph. Seat post suspension like 25lb bikes going 15 mph. So you really need a beefy rear suspension.

Congratulations, you have just re-invented the Stealth Fighter.. and it ain't selling for $1800.
Some of what you claim, is complete hogwash. I have been driving a homebuilt 1000 watt electric fatbike , with the descriptions I stated in my 1st post , for well over a year , and it has stood up to everything I throw at it. I weigh around 230 lbs , and drive it on :

flat roads, dirt roads, inclines, gravel roads , over grass , over sand...etc...

and it doesn't have rear suspension, nor does it need rear suspension. My disc brakes work fine at 160 m.m.

Yes, as another person mentioned, there would be some hurdles involving a ebike that can do 30 + mph out of the box , due to state laws...but then can be easily overcome, by having the ebike delivered with a governor or programmable controller, that sets the top speed of the ebike at around 20 mph, and then leave it up to the individual buyer if they wish to modify the governor or reprogram the controller, to do higher speeds { at their own risk} .

No, my idea is not meant to compete with the $6000 stealth bomber ebike....but it is meant to up the ante a bit, from the stock sondors ebike,

Offer better performance, better battery, front suspension and 7 gears, different frame sizes and keep the price below $2000.

IMHO, this is the next big step forward , in offering a ebike to the masses, at a fair price point, in a package that has the abilty to go faster then 15 mph , and cover about 30 miles distance on 1 charge , while offering 7 gears and 3 frame sizes
 
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The harsh reality of this sondors ebike , is , it really isn't made for larger / taller adults. Any adult person over 6 ft tall, and weighing more then 200 lbs { which is probably 10s of millions of americans } , probably wont be to happy or comfortable on this sondors ebike.
 

PowerMe

Well-Known Member
Not all bikes can conform to every body type. Decisions have to be made to bring a product that will satisfy 70 to 80% of the potential market.

The Sonders bike is not for short people either, btw. I've seen posts from women under 5'3" who say the bike is too tall for them. It appears to fit people between 5'5" and 5'11" on average. That's probably a pretty wide swath right there. Although, as a short female under 5'3" I'm always rooting for smaller bike sizes and/or smaller tires (like 26").
 
Not all bikes can conform to every body type. Decisions have to be made to bring a product that will satisfy 70 to 80% of the potential market.

The Sonders bike is not for short people either, btw. I've seen posts from women under 5'3" who say the bike is too tall for them. It appears to fit people between 5'5" and 5'11" on average. That's probably a pretty wide swath right there. Although, as a short female under 5'3" I'm always rooting for smaller bike sizes and/or smaller tires (like 26").
I would imagine, most female riders may not be as interested in the ebike I am envisioning for several reasons :

1. most female rider are not taller then 6 ft
2. most female riders do not weight 200 lbs or more
3. most female riders may not have a real desire to go faster then 15 mph

etc...

For most female riders, the sondors ebike would probably suffice. All im saying is this...Sondors did well with this ebike he produced at the price point he
offered it at , but I think there is still another market, a few steps better then this sondors bike , where it has better features , more options and comes in under $2000 delivered.

You put a 200 lb person on this sondors ebike, and they are gonna have real issues trying to ascend any type of significant long inclines , just under motor power alone.

The next step up, that I envision, is a ebike that wont have that issue .
 

Ann M.

Well-Known Member
@ebikedelight , Personally, as a female rider I do like to ride faster than 15mph, as do most of my women customers so I find your statement about women riders a bit lacking, to put it politely. I've built conversions for both men and women riders that are 750 to 1000+ watts with 48V battery packs numerous times- everyone is delighted with the power they have on hills and to haul stuff. You don't have to be a heavy person to need the power to carry over 200lbs.
 
@ebikedelight , Personally, as a female rider I do like to ride faster than 15mph, as do most of my women customers so I find your statement about women riders a bit lacking, to put it politely. I've built conversions for both men and women riders that are 750 to 1000+ watts with 48V battery packs numerous times- everyone is delighted with the power they have on hills and to haul stuff. You don't have to be a heavy person to need the power to carry over 200lbs.
I stand by my statements....most woman do not weigh over 200 lbs, most woman are not taller then 6ft...and most woman are gonna be more content
with a ebike that does around 15 mph , compared to most men who will probably want more speed.

This doesn't mean that some woman would not want to occasionaly go faster then 15 mpg on a ebike, but it does mean you will rarely see a female purchase a stealth bomber ebike designed to do 50 + mph.
 
I stand by my statements....most woman do not weigh over 200 lbs, most woman are not taller then 6ft...and most woman are gonna be more content
with a ebike that does around 15 mph , compared to most men who will probably want more speed.

This doesn't mean that some woman would not want to occasionaly go faster then 15 mpg on a ebike, but it does mean you will rarely see a female purchase a stealth bomber ebike designed to do 50 + mph.

as far as needing the power to carry over 200 lbs , that is the whole purpose of having a next generation styled sondors ebike ...with better features at a slightly higher price point. Hence the reason why I started this thread.
 

PowerMe

Well-Known Member
I believe most women will want to go 20mph minimally. 15mph is slow and while that's the limit in Europe, it is too slow for people who live in countries that allow faster speeds. I'd prefer an ebike that can get up to 25mph and I bet I'm not alone by a long shot.
 

George S.

Well-Known Member
You seem to be designing a 35 mph bike. If so, actually design a 35 mph bike. Make it with a rugged frame. Give it a suspension that will handle hitting a pothole. Since you need around 800 watts to go at that speed, on the flat, you need a large battery, and you have to integrate that into the frame. Now, you also want to make it enough different from a light motorcycle so people will say they need it, not the motorcycle. Or maybe it just costs less. And since, legally, it is a motorcycle, you have to work that out.

You seem to be saying lets take some sort of bike frame, cram a battery on it, give it a hopped up motor, and sell it for $1800. Why is this a meaningful exercise. Give Sondors credit for a design that was credible and true to the form, namely ebikes. And ebikes are still limited to 20 mph in most states. Oh yeah, we'll game that.
 
I believe most women will want to go 20mph minimally. 15mph is slow and while that's the limit in Europe, it is too slow for people who live in countries that allow faster speeds. I'd prefer an ebike that can get up to 25mph and I bet I'm not alone by a long shot.

Im sure you are not alone , and that's why I think a next generation styled sondors ebike, with more speed/ power and suspension, could be a big seller.
 
[QUOTE="George S., post: 31653, member: 4"

You seem to be saying lets take some sort of bike frame, cram a battery on it, give it a hopped up motor, and sell it for $1800. Why is this a meaningful exercise. Give Sondors credit for a design that was credible and true to the form, namely ebikes. And ebikes are still limited to 20 mph in most states. Oh yeah, we'll game that.[/QUOTE]

No, that's not what im saying. I went into much DEEPER details...things you seemed to overlook...like :

front suspension , seatpost suspension , offer different frame sizes ...offer more gear selections, etc.

Just because a ebike may have a 20 mph limit on roadways, doesn't mean there aren't numerous consumers who would like the ability to do 30+ mph , on dirt roads , trails , etc.

On the highways, the speed limits are generally around 60 mph..but your average car can easily do 90+ mph.....but you generally wont see peopledoing 90mph on the roads.

Sondors made a attractive looking, low priced ebike for the masses....I think there is still a market in the ebike world, for a higher end ebike, with more features then the sondors , for under $2000 . ...with a 48 volt - 20 A/H battery and 750 - 1000 watt hub motor.
 

Ericmacfan

Member
Some of what you claim, is complete hogwash. I have been driving a homebuilt 1000 watt electric fatbike , with the descriptions I stated in my 1st post , for well over a year , and it has stood up to everything I throw at it. I weigh around 230 lbs , and drive it on :

flat roads, dirt roads, inclines, gravel roads , over grass , over sand...etc...

and it doesn't have rear suspension, nor does it need rear suspension. My disc brakes work fine at 160 m.m.

Yes, as another person mentioned, there would be some hurdles involving a ebike that can do 30 + mph out of the box , due to state laws...but then can be easily overcome, by having the ebike delivered with a governor or programmable controller, that sets the top speed of the ebike at around 20 mph, and then leave it up to the individual buyer if they wish to modify the governor or reprogram the controller, to do higher speeds { at their own risk} .

No, my idea is not meant to compete with the $6000 stealth bomber ebike....but it is meant to up the ante a bit, from the stock sondors ebike,

Offer better performance, better battery, front suspension and 7 gears, different frame sizes and keep the price below $2000.

IMHO, this is the next big step forward , in offering a ebike to the masses, at a fair price point, in a package that has the abilty to go faster then 15 mph , and cover about 30 miles distance on 1 charge , while offering 7 gears and 3 frame sizes
I think the bike you are referring to already exist… It's the RADROVER from RAD Power Bikes !!;)
 
I think the bike you are referring to already exist… It's the RADROVER from RAD Power Bikes !!;)
Yes...its close...

11 A/H battery is a bit low in capacity IMHO....and im not sure if they make the radrover in 3 different frame sizes.

looks like it only comes in 1 frame size...only 11 a/h battery...and limited to top speed of 20 mph..

so its still quite a bit away from my vision. ...although its price point looks very attractive.
 
I think the radrover could have a much larger market, if they offered it in 3 different frame sizes, and a 20 A/H battery upgrade option. ..even if it meant
raising the price from $1499 to $1699.