Trek Domane+ HP 7 vs Specialized Turbo Creo SL Carbon Comp

I know of two other ROAD bikes with motors that are about 30% more powerful than the Trek Domain and Specialized Creo:

Have you considered the Yamaha Civante? It offers 70nm of torque support put to 110 cadence and has a 500wh batter. I use it on the two highest levels going 28 mph and up steep climbs and can easily get 50miles out of my battery. It costs $3,399. If you need components higher than Tiagra then the Giant offers similar specs with Ultegra components.

The only other ROAD bike (that I know of) that offers 28mph and high torque (E+Pro supports 85nm) and high cadence support (120) is the Giant E+Pro. This bike costs $4,700 but it does have Ultegra components and a powerful PW-X2 motor (equivalent to the Bosch 4th gen motor).

The reason the Specialized SL 1.1 motor felt weaker is because it only offers 35nm of torque support. And the Trek Domaine only offers 55nm of torque support. If you’re in good physical shape, then you don’t need more torque support. If you’re not in good shape, then these bikes will have a hard time going up 15% grade climbs because it’ll be mostly your strength propelling you up the hills =)

If you’re open to a GRAVEL bike, Canyon is the only other bike that offers high torque and cadence support. Their Grail:On gravel bike is a very capable bike with great specs. Because it’s a Gravel bike, it only offers one chainring so going a steady 28mph prob isn’t going to be as easy as on the Civante or Giant.
Sorry you are wrong! The Trek Domane+ has 63 newtons, Domane+ HP and HP7 has 85 newtons, Cannondale Lefty also has 85 Newton and the Bosch CX motor. Giant E+ Pro has 80 newtons. The Canyon is a Bosch CX motor but is limited to 20miles per hour! Yamaha is 70 newtons
 

Ezliven

Member
All these bikes mentioned are all good bikes and they will only get better. I talk about the Specialized Creo and the Trek Domane+ HP7 because they are the only ones I had a chance to actually try out before buying. For me I liked the Domane better and since buying it last summer I am liking it more and more. I almost went with the Creo but I couldn't maintain the cadence it required to get top speed or up bigger hills. Would be more for a younger or more fitter rider than I. The Domane doesn't require as high a cadence. I've gotten 75-80 miles with over 2,000 ft. elevation many times in group rides because I can keep it either off or in eco until we get to hills or my turn out front. As I say they are all good bikes, you just have to figure out which one fits you and your fitness level best and go with that. Ride on brothers, ride on.
 

Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Sorry you are wrong! The Trek Domane+ has 63 newtons, Domane+ HP and HP7 has 85 newtons, Cannondale Lefty also has 85 Newton and the Bosch CX motor. Giant E+ Pro has 80 newtons. The Canyon is a Bosch CX motor but is limited to 20miles per hour! Yamaha is 70 newtons
I didn’t realize the 2021 Trek bikes were updated to the new Bosch motor offering 85nm of torque. That’s a nice upgrade . I didn’t know about the Cannondale “Lefty” GRAVEL bike, thanks for that tid bit. You are correct, E+Pro has 80. Enliven, I agree the Domane is better (especially with that new 4th gen motor!) And the Creo is on the weaker side. I didn’t realize you already bought your Trek bike... CONGRATULATIONS
 
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Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Sorry you are wrong! The Trek Domane+ has 63 newtons, Domane+ HP and HP7 has 85 newtons, Cannondale Lefty also has 85 Newton and the Bosch CX motor. Giant E+ Pro has 80 newtons. The Canyon is a Bosch CX motor but is limited to 20miles per hour! Yamaha is 70 newtons
Markybolten, I just looked up the Domane+HP and the HP7 and it said the following. I know the new Performance Line Speed can assist up to 85nm of torque but the Trek website shows 75. Maybe Trek programs the motor with different specs?

Bosch PowerTube 500Bosch PowerTube 500
ControllerBosch Kiox with Anti-theft solutionBosch Kiox with Anti-theft solution
MotorBosch Performance Speed, 75 Nm, 28 mph / 45 kphBosch Performance Speed, 75 Nm, 28 mph / 45 kph
 

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tbar23

Member
Markybolten, I just looked up the Domane+HP and the HP7 and it said the following. I know the new Performance Line Speed can assist up to 85nm of torque but the Trek website shows 75. Maybe Trek programs the motor with different specs?

Bosch PowerTube 500Bosch PowerTube 500
ControllerBosch Kiox with Anti-theft solutionBosch Kiox with Anti-theft solution
MotorBosch Performance Speed, 75 Nm, 28 mph / 45 kphBosch Performance Speed, 75 Nm, 28 mph / 45 kph
Over the summer Bosch rolled out an update to their Gen 4 motor and increased peak torque to 85 Nm.

Bosch Performance Line
You can reach high speeds even faster and cover long distances with ease with the Performance Line Speed Drive Unit. It provides support for speed eBikes up to 28 mph and with the model year 2021 software update, eBike riders can look forward to even faster daily journeys with a maximum torque of 85 Nm.
 

Alaskan

Well-Known Member
Trek has been updating their motors to the 85nm standard at the LBS. Mine was done months ago. I guess their web gurus are bit behind.
 

Oski1997

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Trek has been updating their motors to the 85nm standard at the LBS. Mine was done months ago. I guess their web gurus are bit behind.
Alaskan, great insight! The IT guys need to step it up. It’s hard as it is trying to be an informed consumer. We don’t need bicycle brand websites (ie Trek and Specialized) not matching component brand websites (ie Bosch and Brose). Luckily, I haven’t found another bike brand website with wrong specs. I’m sure if I do enough research I’ll will! LoL
 

Johnny

Well-Known Member
Yup I can make the comparison and you just confirmed it! Torque would be based on rotational force not based on speed! A hub drive usually works independent of the riders pedaling only cutting out at a specific speed by the throttle or regulated. It is usually going to be faster then if you have to pedal to get there which is why your Stromer will be faster then the Bosch. The inclines and weight will make a difference which in the higher numbers, the higher newtons and rider's pedaling of the mid drive working together will overcome the advantage of a hub motor!

No, you can not compare torque numbers of a mid drive torque and hub directly to come to a conclusion because there is a translation between the motor and the rear wheel in the mid drives (the drivetrain). Power is what makes you move (and Stromer is significantly more powerful unless the speed, hence its rpm, drops too low at which point mid drive will shine) use it instead and you will not be confused. Let's not turn this into another hub vs mid drive. All these topics have been discussed many times on the forums. If you have further questions/comments you should continue in those threads.
 
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No, you can not compare torque numbers of a mid drive torque and hub directly to come to a conclusion because there is a translation between the motor and the rear wheel in the mid drives (the drivetrain). Power is what makes you move (and Stromer is significantly more powerful unless the speed, hence its rpm, drops too low at which point mid drive will shine) use it instead and you will not be confused. Let's not turn this into another hub vs mid drive. All these topics have been discussed many times on the forums. If you have further questions/comments you should continue in those threads.
Please your argument is like I am right let's not discuss it anymore!!! LOL! Stop it! Just stop! You are not right and I will not concede to your point! Granted I did say that
A. the Stromer would be faster on the flats than the Creo and HP.
B. Almost all hub motors would be faster than the equivalent mid drive motor.
C. It is a single gear ratio motor. It is meant to rotate up to a certain point. Stromer has the 44 newtons to do that.
D. A electric motor can rotate faster than a human pedaling. It works independently of the bike gearing and pedaling.

but we are discussing power as in torque not speed (quit confusing the two)

E. One newton equals a force that produces an acceleration of one meter per second (s) per second on a one kilogram (kg) mass.
F. The Creo and HP have more newtons
G. Mid-drive motors are known for higher performance and torque when compared to a similarly powered traditional hub motor. One key reason why is that the mid-drive motor drives the crank, instead of the wheel itself, multiplying its power and allowing it to better take advantage of the bike's existing gears.
H. Small hub motors do not have the torque for inclines like mid drive motors. Those hub drive ebikes that you see plowing up the hills need massive battery packs and are much larger compared to a mid drive motor.

But lets make it simple, we can compare two of my FAVORITE cars to get a conception. The (Stromer) 2019 EcoBoost Mustang and (HP) 2015 VW Golf Sportswagen TDI. Both have 4 cyl,
the 2019 Ford Mustang EcoBoost 310 hp @ 5500 rpm / Torque 320 to 350 lb-ft / 0 to 60 - 5.1 seconds
2015 VW Golf Sportswagen TDI 150 hp @ 3500 rpm / Torque 236 / 0 to 60 - 9.0 seconds

If you want to say the Mustang is faster based on that criteria then you would be correct in thinking that the Mustang is more powerful but that is not the full picture and what is being discussed

When we are discussing power (momentum, gravitational force, speed and efficiency) lets use a hill and weight (towing). When towing a trailer of any size, you need enough engine torque to get it launched from a stop, including uphill, and enough power to keep it moving at reasonable speeds up long, steep grades and to safely pass on two-lane roads. You need sufficient engine and driveline cooling to avoid overheating coolant or lubricants up long hills and in hot weather and sufficient brake capacity and cooling to safely descend long downhill grades.

Manufacturer specification for the 2019 Ford Mustang EcoBoost towing capacity is 1000 pounds
Manufacturer specification for the 2015 VW Golf Sportswagen TDI towing capacity is 3500 pounds

Here is a truer picture of which car is more powerful if not based on purely speed!

Bottom line, a slim rider about 150 lbs on a Stromer will beat my 6ft 3in 222 fat ass pounds on a HP on a flat street to 28 mph all day long

But.....

Given as the incline become greater and you add the power of the pedaling and shifting in the right gears then the power of the mid drive shines through!

That Stromer is one impressive bike and is efficient! You pay so much for the technology, features and that sophisticated hub motor. For a commuter biker and /or bike touring, the HP and Creo pales in comparison in that regards but like the VW that is not where the strength lies! For riding up any hills where motor and human power acts as one is where it shines!
Now you can say the conversation is through
 
Alaskan, great insight! The IT guys need to step it up. It’s hard as it is trying to be an informed consumer. We don’t need bicycle brand websites (ie Trek and Specialized) not matching component brand websites (ie Bosch and Brose). Luckily, I haven’t found another bike brand website with wrong specs. I’m sure if I do enough research I’ll will! LoL
I had to search high and low for information so I can understand the confusion. This was my first venture in buying a e-road bike and even more such a expensive bike. I had wanted to get the Haibike e-road bike but glad I waited! The higher battery and the placement of it in the in tube was worth it. Also the nice thing about the current group of e-road bike is that they don't seem to lose their relevance as quick as commuter or mountain bikes. You can customized it and they will still look fresh 3 years from now as they do today! Only thing I dislike is the limitation of the carbon fiber frame and components!
 

jodi2

Active Member
Please your argument is like I am right let's not discuss it anymore!!!
No, he just said, we should not convert this thread longer into a mid motor to hub motor discussion, as there are already other threads for that and where this discussion fits. Also the technical things Johnny wrote were correct.
I'm sorry that I started this discussion with the comparison with my Stromer. It was just an example to show that an powerful motor/drive is equivalent with a heavier bike and therefore more power isn't automatically better (or worse) for every purpose.

To the Trek Domane+: Maybe there is/was somtimes a confusion here between the HP and the LT series. HP has afaik 75 Nm (maybe 85 in some countries?) and LT is the series with Fazua assist motor, which has a maximum of 55Nm with the latest firmware. LT is also a very nice series (especieally with isospeed in the front and in the rear) and nearer to the Creo.
 
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Johnny

Well-Known Member
No, he just said, we should not convert this thread longer into a mid motor to hub motor discussion, as there are already other threads for that and where this discussion fits. Also the technical things Johnny wrote were correct.
I'm sorry that I started this discussion with the comparison with my Stromer. It was just an example to show that an powerful motor/drive is equivalent with a heavier bike and therefore more power isn't automatically better (or worse) for every purpose.

To the Trek Domane+: Maybe there is/was somtimes a confusion here between the HP and the LT series. HP has afaik 75 Nm (maybe 85 in some countries?) and LT is the series with Fazua assist motor, which has a maximum of 55Nm with the latest firmware. LT is also a very nice series (especieally with isospeed in the front and in the rear) and nearer to the Creo.

As you said, I tried to keep it simple and direct further discussions to one of the many other hub vs mid drive threads to keep this one clean.

Don't be sorry, your point was valid, they were trying to play the power game and if that is the case well there are faster/more powerful offerings and Stromer is a very good example. Torque without vs rpm graph is not meaningful to begin with and making conclusions by comparing torque at the crank to torque at the wheels is worse.

Part of the problem is, ebike motor manufacturers know this lack of knowledge and exploit it by advertising peak torque numbers without giving the rpm range where it is supplied.
Moreover there is a reduction gear inside these mid drives, with a mid drive a company can easily boast the maximum torque number at the expense of cadence support range by playing with this reduction gear. I can take a motor which can supply 45nm of torque until 90rpm cadence, use an additional 2 to 1 reduction gear and get 90 nm but it will give it until 45rpm only which will be useless for most cyclists.
 
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jodi2

Active Member
I think we should stop the middle/hub motor discussion here, that's not point of this thread.

But in general I'm surprised that so many (not only in this thread) feel the need for a powerful race bike for their free time. I used my Stromer to get to work as fast and as often as possible. But in my free time I'm not in a hurry, I just need a small help in the mountains to do longer tours and to stay in the mood to discover new paths and detours. But even the Creo SL drive has much more power than you need for this. Maybe you will not win the TDF finish sprint with it, but in medium or long tours even Level1 (that's 60-70watt) allows me to ride together with riders two classes better. In Level2 (120-140watt) I let even those guys behind and in Level3 (240watt/35nm) I'm think I would be a candidate for the TDF. And I'm 50 years and 100kg...
I think one tends to underestimates the support at the beginning and if you try two different drives, the "weaker" one often will disappoint. If I would have tried a Creo SL or a Fazua Bike 4 years ago when I bought my Stromer, I would have said "Is this a joke, so much money for so little support?". But now after riding the different drive types and bikes for a while and knowing there advantages and disadvantages, I really appreciate a light bike and the help even of little motor support. Also if you normally ride alone, you tend to use more support, but less if you ride with others, then you realize, how much even 50 or 100watt support is.
So nothing against powerful bikes like the Domane+ HP, but I think many people overestimate their need for power for an ebike.
 

Captain Slow

Well-Known Member
I agree with much of what Jodi says, but I suppose different people have different needs and wants.

I used to own a Juiced CCS and still have a Creo.

There were times I wanted the additional power of the Juiced and it was nice to have. But at other times I preferred the Creo and still other times I prefer my carbon Cervelo which doesn't have any assistance.

I've been on Zwift a fair bit this winter and I can see riding unpowered and training that my FTP has been increasing and I'm producing more power. Likely in the spring I'll be riding my Cervelo more and my Creo less. I'm sure when my fitness isn't as good then I'll prefer the Creo. So I can see how a more powerful bike makes more sense sometimes and a less powerful bike makes sense other times.
 
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AzDave

Member
Region
USA
I like that both of these bikes exist because they give us options. I own the Creo expert but in certain situations I could see where the HP7 would have an advantage(s). The Domane definitely has more power but in my world that isn't the end all. I like the Creo because it's a little lighter and a little more stealthy with its battery although the battery in the HP is somewhat discreet as well. Also the motor in the Creo is VERY hidden while the motor on the Domane is obvious. The suspension in both bikes is radically different from each other. I'd love to ride the HP7 to feel the difference. I like the future shock on my Creo because it can be adjusted while riding where as I'm not sure the Domane can be adjusted without stopping. The Domane also has integrated lighting with a decently powered light that runs off its 'bigger' battery while the Creo has no preinstalled lights. However I have two Serfas 1600 Lumen lights for my Creo which I swap out with each other. That's probably significantly brighter than the HP light which I would guess is in the ball park of 1000 lumen. Plus I'd rather charge my lights separately and save my battery for my bike motor. Again I like that the Creo is lighter (by about seven pounds). A litter snappier riding and easier to load in a vehicle I would imagine.
 
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drodg

Active Member
You pretty much nailed it. The HP7 which I have is definitely heavier. I test rode the Specialized before I ordered the Domane and actually it checked more boxes for me but my local dealer is a Trek store and they are friends. Pretty much that was my main deciding factor. I have to say I do love my Domane and at 64 in a couple years I might be very glad I bought it over the Creo.
 

AzDave

Member
Region
USA
You pretty much nailed it. The HP7 which I have is definitely heavier. I test rode the Specialized before I ordered the Domane and actually it checked more boxes for me but my local dealer is a Trek store and they are friends. Pretty much that was my main deciding factor. I have to say I do love my Domane and at 64 in a couple years I might be very glad I bought it over the Creo.
I'm glad you like your bike..that is THE most important thing. Plus having local support from your bike shop is a very very important factor that would weigh heavily in a decision on which bike to get. I'm in my lbs so often I know all their names...lol.

Again they are both great bikes that cater to our specific needs and its great to have such tremendous options.
 

AzDave

Member
Region
USA
Plus it occurred to me too that someone may prefer the removable battery on the HP7. That allows more versatility in how to store/transport/charge the bike. With my Creo that is not a huge issue because I have the room in my home. Plus I could always buy the range extender battery which would be a half measure substitute. But these factors all play. It's amazing how different both bikes are but yet each one is such a quality product in their own right.