Watt Wagon direct competitors?

sisyphus

Member
Trusting the the comment "are people getting smaller?" was tongue in cheek; cuz otherwise it would be a little rude. -
I'm 6'6" tall and ride an XL CrossTour very comfortably. I think that's about a 21" frame. Remember, the 4" tires are like adding an inch or two to the frame height. - All my height is in my Torso, plus I like to sit very upright because of the back issues that go along with being 6'6. " So Pushkar did have to stack the stem quite a bit for me. I'm 600 miles on it, and enjoy the hell out of this titanium monster. Pushkar's new offerings look more nimble than my CrossTour. I wouldn't mind one of those if I were more nimble. But I do take my Cross tour on single track mountain trails. I'm just not "shredding it." ;-)
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
Just don't get these heavy MTB with monster batteries like the Beast. If you want 100 mile range for road or extended touring, sure, but for a MTB? If I didn't know better I'd say they are targeted to those with with things to compensate for or facing mid life crisis.
 

pennybags

Active Member
Just don't get these heavy MTB with monster batteries like the Beast. If you want 100 mile range for road or extended touring, sure, but for a MTB? If I didn't know better I'd say they are targeted to those with with things to compensate for or facing mid life crisis.
A-fucking-men !

What's with the weight. I read on FB that this is nearly 80/85 lbs. That bike is gonna have some stress fractures on the frame in a few months of avg to hard use.
 

scrambler

Active Member
It all depends on your use of and MTB.
Keep an open mind for people who have a different usage than yours, like people who go on very long trail rides, or need to ride the bike to faraway trails, or use the bike for a mix of road and trails etc.... :)
 

jharrell

Member
Just don't get these heavy MTB with monster batteries like the Beast. If you want 100 mile range for road or extended touring, sure, but for a MTB? If I didn't know better I'd say they are targeted to those with with things to compensate for or facing mid life crisis.
Doesn't have to be 85lbs, probably a 15lbs battery. I just got back from a 30 mile ride and used 25 wh/mi because I didn't care and it was great. Never regretted more battery, my goal is no range anxiety and longer overall battery life due less deep cycling. Based on my current 1kwh battery on my Juiced and how far I can comfortably ride, 1.5kwhr might be just about right. Being able to sustain 30+ mph without range anxiety would be real nice. At the end of my 30 mile ride voltage was sagging to 46-45v and performance suffered and that was starting with a full 58.8v charge!
 
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jharrell

Member
A-fucking-men !

What's with the weight. I read on FB that this is nearly 80/85 lbs. That bike is gonna have some stress fractures on the frame in a few months of avg to hard use.
The battery is prob 7lbs more than the Hydras, so maybe 65lbs if WW did this, how many of you weigh 325lbs that the Hydra can take and is 7lbs gonna make a diff? Way more weight issue from rider than bike battery assuming they know how to make the frame.
 

TomD

Well-Known Member
Just stepped on the scale. 184, yikes, up 10 pounds from the last time I rode my Frey CC. That's roughly the weight of the 840wh battery on my CC that I was weighing, ha, so I've got a battery to lose.
 

FlatSix911

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Silicon Valley
Frey Beast 60V 24.5ah 1.47kwh 16s Bafang Ultra thats what I'm talking about:

https://electrek.co/2021/01/26/frey-beast-unveil-1800w-electric-mountain-bike-massive-battery/

Imagine with a Archon...
Looks interesting... The Beast! 😉


The higher voltage used for the Beast required FREY to develop a custom version of the Bafang Ultra motor and controller. The increased voltage allows the bike to run at higher power levels without increasing the current. That helps to reduce heat buildup while increasing efficiency.

FREY also had to develop their own 60V battery to power the massive system. And instead of opting for a typical 15-20 Ah battery, which would already be one of the largest in the industry, FREY went all in with a 24.5 Ah battery. That adds up to 1.47 kWh of capacity and may be the single largest electric bicycle battery in a production e-bike (if you don’t count truly motorcycle-style e-bikes).

The battery is physically quite large, and it required a new downtube design for the bike. We’ve seen plenty of 1 kWh batteries before, and they usually get mounted on top of the frame or become semi-integrated. But the FREY Beast manages to engulf the entire high-capacity battery in the frame, resulting in a bloated yet still fairly streamlined downtube.
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
Looks interesting... The Beast! 😉


The higher voltage used for the Beast required FREY to develop a custom version of the Bafang Ultra motor and controller. The increased voltage allows the bike to run at higher power levels without increasing the current. That helps to reduce heat buildup while increasing efficiency.

FREY also had to develop their own 60V battery to power the massive system. And instead of opting for a typical 15-20 Ah battery, which would already be one of the largest in the industry, FREY went all in with a 24.5 Ah battery. That adds up to 1.47 kWh of capacity and may be the single largest electric bicycle battery in a production e-bike (if you don’t count truly motorcycle-style e-bikes).

The battery is physically quite large, and it required a new downtube design for the bike. We’ve seen plenty of 1 kWh batteries before, and they usually get mounted on top of the frame or become semi-integrated. But the FREY Beast manages to engulf the entire high-capacity battery in the frame, resulting in a bloated yet still fairly streamlined downtube.
Somewhere there really is a limit. I would not have gotten a Frey EX as just too heavy. Same goes for this Beast. Truth be told my AM 1000 is pushing the limits. I ride on really bad roads. They're not narrow but they're full of rocks. Loose and half embedded. I appreciate the weight and solid feeling this bike gives me navigating through this junk but if I was riding smoother ground I'd rather have a lighter bike. Hoping the Hydra proves to be right and I think I'll travel to 'greener pastures' with it as soon as I retire.
 

sisyphus

Member
So I came across these bikes in the most roundabout way.. while searching for information on Reddit about ebikes in general, and what a "Rohloff" hub is when someone mentioned them in a particular post lol. The owner of Watt Wagon appears to be a regular reddit poster and some of his comments on ebikes just drew me to this line.. The guy's approach to biking just seems incredibly impassioned, analytical, and open to feedback and constructive criticism. There was a thread on endless sphere, where he handled a forum heckler in the most professional and resolute manner when they launched there last year. How I would want the commuter pro configured is about 1000$ out of my budget right now, but I would really like to pick one up if things align.


My questions for those that picked up a Watt Wagon:

Why this line vs other high-end bikes such as the Riese and Muller?
With no reviews that I could source, even here on EBR.. what drew you to them?
It appears to be a small shop currently; How has the support been thus far on any issues experienced?
How long is an expected delivery of the bike?
Does your bike look as refined in person as they do in images(perspective i know, but im still curious)
How is the ride? harsh, soft?
Any dealbreakers thus far?
Has anyone ridden their top-end 2k+ torque motor?
And does anyone have any pics of the upcoming commuter pro model!


Thanks!
1: R & M has far less power and no throttle. And vs. other brands it also has Gates and Rohloff.
2: I did a HUGE amount of research and rode many bikes including R&M. Price was not an object for me, I tested an Optibike and didn't like it for multiple reasons. Though I should note, WW is a good value compared to so many others. Beyond the ti frame, it's about the components. He uses the very very best components.
3: Pushkar is a fine human being. Simple as that.
4: You’d have to ask Pushkar.
5: Yes, the Ti frame is gorgeous.
6 What bump? I didn’t feel a bump. My Crosstour floats over anything with ease.
7: No deal breakers
8 I haven’t tried the 2K. My 1K has more power than I need. I never use sport mode and am usually at1 or 2 occasionally 3 (out of 5) power level. And that gets me up any hill w/o pedaling, and over 25MPH on flats. It has more to give but that's enough for me!

This is not my first ebike BTW. I've now got about 750 miles on my Crosstour, and I love it.
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
1: R & M has far less power and no throttle. And vs. other brands it also has Gates and Rohloff.
2: I did a HUGE amount of research and rode many bikes including R&M. Price was not an object for me, I tested an Optibike and didn't like it for multiple reasons. Though I should note, WW is a good value compared to so many others. Beyond the ti frame, it's about the components. He uses the very very best components.
3: Pushkar is a fine human being. Simple as that.
4: You’d have to ask Pushkar.
5: Yes, the Ti frame is gorgeous.
6 What bump? I didn’t feel a bump. My Crosstour floats over anything with ease.
7: No deal breakers
8 I haven’t tried the 2K. My 1K has more power than I need. I never use sport mode and am usually at1 or 2 occasionally 3 (out of 5) power level. And that gets me up any hill w/o pedaling, and over 25MPH on flats. It has more to give but that's enough for me!

This is not my first ebike BTW. I've now got about 750 miles on my Crosstour, and I love it.
Sisyphus, I wish you posted more. You have much to contribute. I'd sure like to see a picture of your bike. Maybe you have put one up but I haven't found it yet. 👍
 

reed scott

Well-Known Member
Oddly, that's not an easy question to answer. because they're so different. Here's how I'd put it. The WW with 4" tires (regardless of what brand) and the seat post suspension is a VERY CUSHY ride. It's a softer ride than my full suspension FLX. I ride over everything like it was nothing.
That said, the R & M is.... like wow. Like you get the feel of fat tires w/o fat tires. But it's more than that; it's a feeling like no other bike. BUT, the R&M motor is lackluster, and there's no throttle.

Courtney, the awesome guy that runs RBR said his fav bike doesn't exist. It would be an R&M with a throttle and a 1000W+ motor. So, if you want a beautiful bike for thousands more, that gives you a gentile amazing ride on moderate size tires, but you still have to peddle all the time and still takes work up steep hills, go for an R&M. But if you want a bike that takes you up a hill, peddle or don't, and is REALLY cushy like an A+ to R&M's A++, go for a WW.
It will be a few years before someone blends the two. In the meantime, it comes down to this: do you want R&M's really refined slightly underpowered ride. Or do you want the same Rohloff/Gates tech on a fantastic bike that gives you more power than you will ever need. (Nice controller too - which is about = to R&M, and tons better than all other bikes I've ridden, and REALLY important.).
No judgement. I just love the "HOLY S**T factor I get from my WW that you won't quite get from an R&M.
A perfect summation. Your line about throttles in another of your posts is exactly how I feel. I don't use it much but when I need it ... it's a life saver. Yesterday I had to cross a little low water crossing that we have here on the ranch. It's gravel not concrete. I took the down stream line where I usually take the upstream side. Oops. Water was suddenly 6 inches deeper and I was bogging and about to go down. But my thumb was already on the throttle. No problem. Saved my bacon as I was very nearly in the drink and about to fall on some nasty baby head rocks. I wish I was a better rider but this Archon X1 really makes up for my lack and covers for my O L D condition. 👍 😍🤣
 

Cuz Vinny

Active Member
The Frey Beast is going to be a halo bike for them and produced in limited numbers. Shipping costs on a bike that big and heavy will be stupid.
 

jharrell

Member
The Frey Beast is going to be a halo bike for them and produced in limited numbers. Shipping costs on a bike that big and heavy will be stupid.
My Juiced RCS weighs 85lbs, made in China, free shipping from their California warehouse, They also have 100lbs bikes with free shipping. 7lbs more battery will make almost no difference in shipping. Cost may be a different issue, the battery will be very expensive and if they have limited production, it will be much more expensive than their other bikes.

Frey really needs US distribution warehouse.
 

Cuz Vinny

Active Member
My Juiced RCS weighs 85lbs, made in China, free shipping from their California warehouse, They also have 100lbs bikes with free shipping. 7lbs more battery will make almost no difference in shipping. Cost may be a different issue, the battery will be very expensive and if they have limited production, it will be much more expensive than their other bikes.

Frey really needs US distribution warehouse.
IMO the Hydra is the better bike. It makes 2300w nominal and 3000w peak. Plus it weighs less than the Frey Beast. The Frey is nice but it’s too heavy for what I want and Frey’s shipping costs are prohibiting.
 

sisyphus

Member
Sisyphus, I wish you posted more. You have much to contribute. I'd sure like to see a picture of your bike. Maybe you have put one up but I haven't found it yet. 👍
Thanks for your kind remarks. My CrossTour has 26" tires/wheels. I believe he's using 27.5 now. Both are fine.... I switched my 45NRTH tires (sold them on eBay) and got Vee "Zig-Zag" tires. The 45Nrths were great. But they were so LOUD! And since I decided not to ride in snow or aggressively on single track trails, they fit the bill. Though they are a little sloppy at high speed on a tight turn. But man.... what a smooth ride. When they eventually wear out, I think I'll try Supercell origin 8, and see how they are. I also just switched my Brooks C17 (also sold it on eBay) to a B17, after trying a couple cushy ones. My C17 was actually more comfortable than state of the art softer saddles. But in pursuit of perfection I got the B17 and I really like it.

In the attached pictures you'll see that I have an enormous stem. ("That's what she said!" - Not. LOL!) I'm 6'6" with most of my height in my torso, plus I like to sit pretty straight. Pushkar rigged it up to accommodate.

The bike is awesome. And Pushkar is such a sincere guy.

It's mainly a road bike with versatility. A road bike that you can go right over curbs (either up or down) with no worries! It's also excellent on gravel, and I take it on some single track. But it's not a trail bike. He has other models now to fit that bill. - I had one too many crashes on trails on my last bike, an FLX Attack which was well suited for trails, but I just don't have the agility for intense trails anymore. All good. Live to ride another day.

Ya know what's sweet (beyond taking hills w/ease? When I used to be in heavy traffic at a stoplight, I'd have this terrible angst about getting out of the way when the light changed. But now, BOOM, I'm gone! And if I want to own the road I can, and not piss of the driver behind me.
 

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sisyphus

Member
Sisyphus, is the shortened front fender for a bike rack? And while I'm at it, does anyone have input on best hitch platform rack???
I can only tell you that originally he offered a front rack option, which I didn't need. It came with a really nice rack. So nice I hated to take it off! But I didn't need it 95% of the time. So for the 5% time I do need storage I pop on this MTX unit. & move the rear light to the back of it.
 

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