Watt Wagons CrossTour Reviews

Fast n' Furious

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
@Lsthrz my suggestion to @pushkar would be to not ship any bikes with the M8000-RD & a cassette with a tallest cog larger than 46T (he's already stated this what they're doing) and then go back to the 11-50's when M8100-RD becomes more widely available again. Since Shimano is nice enough that the M8100-RD 12spd works great on an 11spd with the M8000 shifters that are still cheap and available then it shouldn't really affect them otherwise. Not to mention with the X1 it's probably smarter to lean towards larger cogs in the rear vs the 9T or 10T unless you absolutely want to trade service intervals and reliability (and range) for top speed; from those Bikecalc charts you are a bonafied motorcycle at that point. Considering wear, HG-freehub availability (including steel freehub bodies), and the range vs cadence vs speed thing it's probably best to stick with 11spd and 11T as the smallest cog. Even on the 11T you only have 6 or 7 of those teeth taking all the force from the motor, which doesn't feel like a lot at 200Nm+

This is where high-power ebikes get way more complicated than bicycles. If the X1/X2 controllers could take a gear sensor input like what Rohloff e14 + Bosch does, and know which gear the bike is in, there can be some torque-limiting on the motor in the smaller cogs to prevent accelerated drivetrain wear/damage from poor-practice from the rider. With a cable shifter this could be an inline hall sensor+magnet setup or something that's indexed with the shifter. With electronic shifters there's definitely already something telling it which gear it's in and possibly already has an output for that signal for other ebike motors on the market. These are the subtle, more difficult features to get into an ebike that would definitely push WW above other enthusiast options if they could work them out - but we're getting into the realm of chasing unicorns here. Still I don't think it's beyond their capability, but probably beyond their capacity right now with how much they have going on and how small of a team they have. I'm sure there's also limitations on the Innotrace side that WW has no power over either.

@Fast n' Furious d'oh I meant the e*thirteen cassette you linked, and I'd double check Shimano's site for the D1x - I do know Garbaruk makes a D1x and an AXS cage as well, I'm not luxurious enough to have to have looked into compatibility with those though and what the derailleurs can fit stock. I plugged the cog numbers from that cassette into the Bikecalc tool for that chart. The principle for all electric motors is the faster they spin up to a certain point the more efficient they are at turning that electric energy into motion. An electric motor generates a back emf that at some speed will be equal to the forward current, and the motor can't spin any faster without higher voltage. Grin's Phaserunner can extend this rpm limit with field-weakening but that pushes the current higher without the voltage and can quickly heat things up - so there definitely is a ceiling, but the motor's efficiency peak is probably higher than our optimum cadence. Spinning the motor/chainring faster to get the same speed also puts less stress on the chain (higher drive rpm for same speed means the same amount of power with less torque - meaning lower forces through the chain). From my amateur note taking on my rides with my hub drive, on a 42x11 top gear (I've got an 11-34T 7spd on that) I can cruise comfortably around 24-26mph on the paved flats with 29x2 tires, guessing from the linked tools I'd say that would have me putting out around 150-180W and the motor is consuming around 150-230W and I can get a pretty great range cruising at that speed. It's definitely more what's best for you - ride style, terrain, desired range. I'm going for 11-51x30T up front but also have a cheapie 40T & 50T to experiment with though I'm sure my riding situation is way different than your. I use that 60-125rpm window in the bikecalc tool for like, 60-90 is what's best comfort/cruise-wise for me, then 95-120 is a sprint/me putting in more effort, and the 125 is showing where you clown-pedal.

Here's a chart showing what I can expect with my setup using a 30T & a 40T chainring. The 30T is definitely more for mountain goatin' and keeping a higher cadence at lower speeds up inclines, but you can see with the 40T in the top 3 gears I have a good cruising range from 22~30mph, and I can still boogie on up to 41mph if I need to give it some sauce - which makes sense because I'll probably wind up setting my X1 to 1000W nominal (1700W peak?). Like I said it's dependant on your needs - and 36mph does sound like a pretty sweet cruising speed, taking into account your handle is Fast n' Furious lol
View attachment 106954

How do you like the D1x? I've seen some videos on the SRAM AXS and it's now wireless and can take a literal hammering and reset its position, but good lord is the price tag eye-watering. I suppose if you go all in on the WW it's best to go all in 😄
Very interesting.
My Cross Tour's under construction so I don't know how the D1x feels yet.
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/members/cuz-vinny.38277/ would be the guy's brain to pick. He has two.
I like the SRAM AXS. It's slicker than the D1x - but not as versatile, limiting my derailleur choices to SRAM or hacked components.
My focus has been on the shifters and their mounting. While the AXS matchmaker may not fit correctly for my application, I really like the toggle controller demoed in videos. I'm pretty much 'all in' where I'm goin' - lol.
I dislike complications and it's possible I'll even trade off that black box for downgrading to manual shifter and cable. Won't matter if I can't clean up that cable management. No problem with Shark Batteries. The wiring harness could use improvement.
For the Cross Tour, my understanding is a 27.5x 3 and and 26 x 4 are available. I've built in 27.5 x 3.
I don't think either CT or Ultimate Commuter come in 29". A 43t seems to be the max
Feelin' bad for Deacon.
I hope the community assists him to a sound solution.
I say it's the offset - bigly.
 
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Deacon Blues

Well-Known Member
The UC Pro comes with 27.5" rims and Schwalbe 2.9" Moto X tires.

I wonder if my UC Pro was the first one that Pushkar's built with a Shimano 11sp groupset. It must be because anyone the the past who ordered this bike with a shimano groupset would have run into the same skipping problem and notified WW.
 

loamoaf

Active Member
Region
USA
@Fast n' Furious ahh I see, I actually had to read up as I wasn't sure and the D1x hooks up to existing derailleurs, it's the Di2 that's Shimano's fully electronic system, and the new AXS has the advantage of being wireless & standalone. I hate wires enough that I'm trying to extend the cables on my cockpit electronics so I can stuff all the connectectors in the space between the steerer & battery inside my frame, so the wireless & the impact handling on the AXS appeal big time to me - but the price tag does not. SRAM & Shimano's 10/11/12 spd cassettes are spaced the same though so you shouldn't be locked to a SRAM cassette - right? Seems like the D1x is something I could hook up to my existing derailleur but my cabling is all internal so it may not be as elegant.

I think for something like the Crosstour they should try out large triangle batteries for max range - makes sense for touring. Do like some of those on ES and get a cargo trailer for all your gear and have 300W worth of flexi-panels on it to charge while you go. On a sunny day you could probably pedal along 25-30mph for free. Up here in the summer that's a lot of miles!

If the Crosstour comes in 26x4 I'd assume it's fatbike spacing but there's 177 & 197mm - the wider one would probably require the the fatbike spider with no spacers, but the normal one would probably need the chainring outboard of the normal spider with spacers - or run inboard on the fatbike spider. My best guess for Deacon's UC Pro is assembly - the frame/rear axle width would determine whether it needs the standard boost or fatbike spider, it either got the wrong spider or the chainring should be flopped outboard.
 

Fast n' Furious

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
Loamoak, I'd be the first to admit that I know very little about how derailleurs function, but looking at the cross chaining on my UC Pro I can't help but think that nothing can be done to this derailleur to stop the chain skipping in the cassette's smallest 3 cogs. The chain angle from the front ring to the 11, 13, and 15 rings is huge.

472B6zj.jpg
Deacon ... that IS a huge offset.
I note you have the wider frame? Boost? CT?
Would this help Fat bike offset for Ultra ?
Didn't I see you here https://electricbikereview.com/foru...face-narrow-wide-chainring.44025/#post-446051 ?
While hydaphiles were upset it was too much offset, that's supposed to be the correct offset fitting for a 148mm rear. Are you wider?
If not what?

Regards
 

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Fast n' Furious

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
@Fast n' Furious ahh I see, I actually had to read up as I wasn't sure and the D1x hooks up to existing derailleurs, it's the Di2 that's Shimano's fully electronic system, and the new AXS has the advantage of being wireless & standalone. I hate wires enough that I'm trying to extend the cables on my cockpit electronics so I can stuff all the connectectors in the space between the steerer & battery inside my frame, so the wireless & the impact handling on the AXS appeal big time to me - but the price tag does not. SRAM & Shimano's 10/11/12 spd cassettes are spaced the same though so you shouldn't be locked to a SRAM cassette - right? Seems like the D1x is something I could hook up to my existing derailleur but my cabling is all internal so it may not be as elegant.

I think for something like the Crosstour they should try out large triangle batteries for max range - makes sense for touring. Do like some of those on ES and get a cargo trailer for all your gear and have 300W worth of flexi-panels on it to charge while you go. On a sunny day you could probably pedal along 25-30mph for free. Up here in the summer that's a lot of miles!

If the Crosstour comes in 26x4 I'd assume it's fatbike spacing but there's 177 & 197mm - the wider one would probably require the the fatbike spider with no spacers, but the normal one would probably need the chainring outboard of the normal spider with spacers - or run inboard on the fatbike spider. My best guess for Deacon's UC Pro is assembly - the frame/rear axle width would determine whether it needs the standard boost or fatbike spider, it either got the wrong spider or the chainring should be flopped outboard.
My same thoughts here. I went with 177, but they offered 197mm as well.
That's why I asked Deacon what's up when I see that photo of all the space around the rear tire. It looks like 26 x 4"s would fit perfectly.
Indications on the previous website showed no such variation for the UC. The CT, yes. The build page. Yes.
WW's site show the UC is a 2.4" schwalbe tire bike.
My CT is a 27.5 x 3" - 26 x 4" bike.

Fn'F
 

loamoaf

Active Member
Region
USA
I'm not sure why I got a 27.5 x 2.90 tire instead of the 2.40. Maybe that's what Pushkar had in stock.
This is making a little more sense now - I think - if yours came with fatbike spacing I can see why he'd include the wider tires and why the chainline is off with the standard spider. You should've received a fatbike spider with your frame, not sure if WW offered an option on the spider separate from the frame spacing but ideally the store wouldn't allow an incompatible combination. Odd though that @Fast n' Furious mentioned he didn't see that option on the UC Pro build page. IMO with the rigid stuff I think higher volume tires are the way to go - a little more stable on the ground gives you more vibration damping and you can usually still air up plus-size tires to have fairly low rolling-resistance.

I think to avoid these issues Team WW should do what 1UP USA has been doing and have customers sign up for a wait list, and then send out an invite to order (with a lead time) as they catch up on fulfilling orders, restocking components, and working on their upcoming bike designs. This would give them some time to decompress and do some of these more mundane things like set up their online store to ensure these kind of compatibility issues are avoided. Nobody likes making spreadsheets or forms, but a week of boring clerical work can smooth out operations immensely and that has lasting benefits.
 

Fast n' Furious

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
I'm not sure why I got a 27.5 x 2.90 tire instead of the 2.40. Maybe that's what Pushkar had in stock.
I cannot locate any Schwalbe Super Moto in 27.5 x 2.9". What does it say on the tire?
Loamoaf is getting the sense of it.
I think you got a Cross tour frame and not the required offset adapter.
 

Fast n' Furious

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
This is making a little more sense now - I think - if yours came with fatbike spacing I can see why he'd include the wider tires and why the chainline is off with the standard spider. You should've received a fatbike spider with your frame, not sure if WW offered an option on the spider separate from the frame spacing but ideally the store wouldn't allow an incompatible combination. Odd though that @Fast n' Furious mentioned he didn't see that option on the UC Pro build page. IMO with the rigid stuff I think higher volume tires are the way to go - a little more stable on the ground gives you more vibration damping and you can usually still air up plus-size tires to have fairly low rolling-resistance.

I think to avoid these issues Team WW should do what 1UP USA has been doing and have customers sign up for a wait list, and then send out an invite to order (with a lead time) as they catch up on fulfilling orders, restocking components, and working on their upcoming bike designs. This would give them some time to decompress and do some of these more mundane things like set up their online store to ensure these kind of compatibility issues are avoided. Nobody likes making spreadsheets or forms, but a week of boring clerical work can smooth out operations immensely and that has lasting benefits.
I plotted for 9 months before I bought. I have the data on every combination offered for the CT and UC during that time.
That combo was never offered.
 

loamoaf

Active Member
Region
USA
@Fast n' Furious if they already had the store set up to avoid that issue then it's sounding more like an assembly error. How many people who have received their bike earlier in the year have posted pictures of theirs ride where it shows the chainring?

I think it would be smart if QC from WW on assembly & setup included riding the bike up and down the greenway on a set of test cranks/pedals/wheels with identical hub & cassette that they are shipping with, and a shop battery pack. That way they can ensure everything is set up right in the derailleur & chainring without actually putting any wear on customers' more expensive wear items. It's not always apparent when the bike is on a stand and you're not putting it through its paces carrying a human around at different speeds etc. Even better QC/CS if they bed in customers' brakes for them as well. It's not uncommon for a derailleur to come out of alignment slightly from shipper handling but a QC ride would have caught the chainline issue real quick.
 

Fast n' Furious

Active Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
I'm not sure why I got a 27.5 x 2.90 tire instead of the 2.40. Maybe that's what Pushkar had in stock.
Agreed, but your frame looks to be at least boost (wide) version as well. Even those 2.9"'s look small.
There are films of Ultra powered, chain-drive Freys doing wheelies.
I don't see complaints on their posts of skipping in high gear.
That 11 speed'll work fine once you align. lol
I looked around on endless sphere for you. Fat Bike's were adding additional 6mm offsets for this exact problem.
I thought from the start there might be a coefficient factor. 8mm is a lot. 6mm is the most common.
The fat bikes documenting were boost and 177mm, not the 197mm tail.
 

Jon A

Active Member
Region
USA
@Jon A nice find on the article, makes more sense that it would be a little outboard of the middle cog. That ticking on the larger cog can also cause skipping because the cogs have ramps on them to grab the chain when you shift. Some cassettes have different patterns or more aggressive ramps than others so this could be more or less pronounced depending on whether you're rocking the e*thirteen, Shimano, or Sunrace cassettes.
Yeah, I hadn't seen that extra 2mm before, I hadn't really thought about it much beyond "aim for the middle!" But it does make some sense in that an angled chain only hangs in the air on the big cogs but can run into the next cog on the little ones. And it does seem to line up with the nominal recommended with a lot of systems.