Well this ain't good...

Dmitri

Active Member
So apparently Bosch is going to detect speed tuning soon... no action so far, just detection.

bosch tuning detection.png
 

Velome

Member
Seems this would be a software change so if current owners never had their software updated it wouldn't impact them, imho.
 

Dmitri

Active Member
Seems this would be a software change so if current owners never had their software updated it wouldn't impact them, imho.
Yeah. That's good to know. Then again I've got my Nyon self-updating.

I mean, you can see where it's heading, right? The system will detect manipulation and kill the motor.
 

Velome

Member
Yes, I certainly could, but I don't see how they could detect my badass device unless they changed the sensor somehow.
 

Dmitri

Active Member
Yes, I certainly could, but I don't see how they could detect my badass device unless they changed the sensor somehow.
Umm, your Badass device is the easiest device to detect because it only works from 17kph upwards. So if the software sees an abrupt jump from 17kph to, say, 9kph, they know that you're manipulating things.

Of course, BadassBox will be updated to just 'divide by two' in all cases. But don't forget that the other part of the change that's coming is a secondary speed sensor (instead of cadence sensor). This speed sensor is required for the ABS module, and I suspect it's housed inside the brake rotor. For now, this entire setup is very Magura-specific, but I wouldn't put it past Bosch to just have 2 speed sensors for consistency. And then no BadassBox will help you.
 

Velome

Member
Yes, you are exactly correct about the detection of the speed change. I thought about that after I posted. Thanks for the correction and elaboration on 2 speed sensors!
 

hurricane56

Active Member
I'm guessing that Bosch will leave it up to the dealer and regional service provider to sort out any issues that they believe were caused by tuning.
 

Rakku

Active Member
I dont like this change at all.

Again, it should be the responsibility and the descision of the owner of the bike if he tunes it or not.

Image what would happen if the car industry would start this.

Oh, you tuned your car? Switched out the shifting knob?
No more car for you!

Its plain stupid.


Most people buying ebikes or rather who can afford ebikes are adults and adults are able to make such descisions for themselves, I dont need a company taking those away for me.

If they really pull through with this, I might change my mind buying a bosch bike and go for the yamaha version.
 

Dmitri

Active Member
If they really pull through with this, I might change my mind buying a bosch bike and go for the yamaha version.
Honestly the way these unelected EU bureaucrats work is they just force everyone to do their bidding, so I doubt Yamaha will be immune from this.

BTW even though I'm a heavy Bosch user, I now lean strongly towards Yamaha, if only because you no longer have to buy Yamaha batteries to operate on a Yamaha drive :)
 

Dmitri

Active Member
Nyon gets OTA updates? I did not know that.
They Nyon is the biggest invasion of privacy that Bosch could possibly invent. Not only does it get OTA updates (like, one day my maps all stopped working because it was forcing me to do an update), but it also records online all the information not just about your trips (this makes figuring out where you live trivial) but also detailed information about the operation of your bike, such as the speed you've been going. So now, if you've been involved in an accident, they can just look up this data and prove that you were there and you were speeding.

Honestly though, don't get the Nyon, it doesn't offer any actual benefits. The navigation feature is a joke, uses OpenStreetMap, has no idea about actual topography let alone traffic rules. Typically its routes are insane and you're better off using a mobile phone. The rest of the metrics are just gimmicks and honestly I'd just prefer no display (like Specialized do on their ebikes) because this thing is beautiful, for sure, but hugely distracting, not to mention being a big piece of spyware.
 

Rakku

Active Member
Honestly the way these unelected EU bureaucrats work is they just force everyone to do their bidding, so I doubt Yamaha will be immune from this.

BTW even though I'm a heavy Bosch user, I now lean strongly towards Yamaha, if only because you no longer have to buy Yamaha batteries to operate on a Yamaha drive :)
That is actually nice, there are just a few things keeping me from getting the yamaha version of the bike I want.
No integrated battery in tube design (looks way nicer), and Haibikes top yamaha versions always come with a 2by drivetrain (2x10 gears), and the front gearing protrudes as the lowest point without any protection, meaning if I hit something mountainbiking, its going to damage something.

If the only difference was the motor, I´d easily take the yamaha one because I like the screen way more then the bosch purion.

And the thing I wonder about is, will this detection still work if its just impacting the sensors like the badassbox?
 

Durukan Devrim

New Member
They Nyon is the biggest invasion of privacy that Bosch could possibly invent. Not only does it get OTA updates (like, one day my maps all stopped working because it was forcing me to do an update), but it also records online all the information not just about your trips (this makes figuring out where you live trivial) but also detailed information about the operation of your bike, such as the speed you've been going. So now, if you've been involved in an accident, they can just look up this data and prove that you were there and you were speeding.

Honestly though, don't get the Nyon, it doesn't offer any actual benefits. The navigation feature is a joke, uses OpenStreetMap, has no idea about actual topography let alone traffic rules. Typically its routes are insane and you're better off using a mobile phone. The rest of the metrics are just gimmicks and honestly I'd just prefer no display (like Specialized do on their ebikes) because this thing is beautiful, for sure, but hugely distracting, not to mention being a big piece of spyware.
I've done some research. It doesn't get OTA firmware updates for the drivetrain. It just updates the map as you mentioned. I don't care about legal stuff but your dongle seems to be safe. Which one do you have btw? I'm thinking of getting one. I haven't updated my drivetrain since 2016 and magnet on cranks works perfect for my CX but I feel a buzzing sensation through cranks at high cadence. Maybe a dongle will fix this, I'm not sure though.
 

Dmitri

Active Member
That is actually nice, there are just a few things keeping me from getting the yamaha version of the bike I want.
No integrated battery in tube design (looks way nicer), and Haibikes top yamaha versions always come with a 2by drivetrain (2x10 gears), and the front gearing protrudes as the lowest point without any protection, meaning if I hit something mountainbiking, its going to damage something.
If the only difference was the motor, I'd easily take the yamaha one because I like the screen way more then the bosch purion.
Umm, from what I remember, the top Haibike models all use Bosch. If you want a top-of-the-line Yamaha-equipped Haibike, my advice is as follows: get an affordable model with the frame features you want (e.g., a dual-sus frame, if that's what you're after). This will have a 1x system, most likely. So instead of a 10.0 get a 4.0 or 5.0 in current Haibike nomenclature.

Now, simply throw away all the garbage that was installed on the frame. Like, at this price level, you get a Suntour fork... you can just throw that in the bin. I guarantee you, by the time you do the upgrades, not only will you get a much better bike than even what a 10.0 gives you (remember, you can go for aftermarket stuff now, like Cane Creek, DVO, Ohlins, Hope brakes, beautiful wheels by CrankBrothers and the like) but also you'll save, like, tons of money. Because at that price level, you pay a ludicrous premium on every single feature.
 

Dmitri

Active Member
I've done some research. It doesn't get OTA firmware updates for the drivetrain. It just updates the map as you mentioned. I don't care about legal stuff but your dongle seems to be safe. Which one do you have btw? I'm thinking of getting one. I haven't updated my drivetrain since 2016 and magnet on cranks works perfect for my CX but I feel a buzzing sensation through cranks at high cadence. Maybe a dongle will fix this, I'm not sure though.
Well yeah, of course it doesn't. Because if it did that, people would simply intercept those, reverse-engineer them and program their own drivetrains. I mean, you can already program it to some extent with the useless and paid 'custom riding modes' feature. But imagine if people could re-firmware their drives from CX to Speed (it's the same hardware, remember).
 

Rakku

Active Member
Umm, from what I remember, the top Haibike models all use Bosch. If you want a top-of-the-line Yamaha-equipped Haibike, my advice is as follows: get an affordable model with the frame features you want (e.g., a dual-sus frame, if that's what you're after). This will have a 1x system, most likely. So instead of a 10.0 get a 4.0 or 5.0 in current Haibike nomenclature.

Now, simply throw away all the garbage that was installed on the frame. Like, at this price level, you get a Suntour fork... you can just throw that in the bin. I guarantee you, by the time you do the upgrades, not only will you get a much better bike than even what a 10.0 gives you (remember, you can go for aftermarket stuff now, like Cane Creek, DVO, Ohlins, Hope brakes, beautiful wheels by CrankBrothers and the like) but also you'll save, like, tons of money. Because at that price level, you pay a ludicrous premium on every single feature.
Doesnt seem like it works on the german Haibike bikes like that.

The Yamaha version always comes with a 2by without a integrated tube battery, no matter which version.
At least of the fullseven and the allmtn, I already did a complete step by step comparison between all models starting from 4.0 up to 10.0.

And on the german Haibike site, the 10.0 version of the Allmtn and the Fullseven and the Fullseven LT is always the Yamaha PW-X, not the bosch.

The bosch one is the 9.0.
 

Dmitri

Active Member
And on the german Haibike site, the 10.0 version of the Allmtn and the Fullseven and the Fullseven LT is always the Yamaha PW-X, not the bosch.

But you live in the EU, so for example this bike has 1x11 NX setup with a Yamaha motor. Is this what you wanted?
 

Rakku

Active Member
Well it isnt bad, but I already decided I´ll just straight go for the bosch variant, its not that bad.
The allmtn has another color scheme, and different components.
I just like the complete package of the Allmtn 9.0 and the price point with those components.

I mean if I would buy like the rims seperatly, only those would cost me already 650€.
Although I dont know why a complete rim set is that friggin expensive.
 

Dmitri

Active Member
Well it isnt bad, but I already decided I´ll just straight go for the bosch variant, its not that bad.
The allmtn has another color scheme, and different components.
I just like the complete package of the Allmtn 9.0 and the price point with those components.

I mean if I would buy like the rims seperatly, only those would cost me already 650€.
Although I dont know why a complete rim set is that friggin expensive.
You mean wheelset, right? It's relatively expensive because the rims on ebikes, with the exception of premium bikes like R&M, are dirt cheap to begin with, typically made of aluminum and very narrow, many of them are weird OEM stuff that you need to get rid of as soon as possible. The hubs are typically Novatech or worse, not bad but not great. Also you don't need carbon wheels on an ebike and for this price you can get really cool alu wheels that nobody else has. And yes, they'll have quality hubs in them.

Also, consider a bike as an incremental upgrade process. Nobody's forcing you to do everything at once. For example, you might decide you want to try a Rohloff or something equally cool later on... well you can, when you are ready. I understand wanting to have everything at once but unfortunately when you buy it, you get massively fleeced by the bike maker.

Oh and regarding color schemes and whatnot... it costs me about EUR40 to repaint a bicycle frame and you can get amazing colors, way beyond what bike manufacturers put on their bikes. You can get any plain color, metallic paints, craquelure (not my cup of tea, but looks awesome), and you can also pick how many of layers of lacquer you want and what effects you want in the lacquer. It's an art. Yeah it does require you to disassemble your bike, but you only have to do it once. Can also paint other exotic parts of your bike like rims, fork, etc. Also when painting bikes, people often get the bridge(s) of their rear suspension anodized. I don't know why everyone's doing it but it's a trend.