What set of features and price points would you prefer in your E-bike battery?

stw

Member
Region
USA
....

If a pack has a ridiculously high price of 600$ or an insanity level of 1200$ it only speaks of about the lack of education on behalf of the customer.
....

Well , Bosch congratulations for selling about 125$ worth of cells (142-147$ with Bms/case) for 1000$ 👑🤑💰...

This is the very thing that kept me from buying another Bosch-equipped bike last month after buying my first e-bike in late March (a Bosch bike). Instead my second e-bike is going a different direction.

I suppose I'm a poster-boy for that lack of battery education. My e-eduction has only begun but in the short time I've been learning, I know enough not to pay a Bosch premium for a battery again. I may try to sell this one on while its stock 36v13a battery is still good so I won't be stuck needing a Bosch supplied battery later. It's too bad because I like much of the rest of the Bosch system I have, the motor and response (ActiveLine Plus with Purion). Don't mean to single out the Bosch since there may be others who are charging those prices for a 36v13a battery too. My point is I like the Bosch but now know enough to not pay that kind of price for their battery. (Happy to be corrected if my viewpoint is not accurate.)
 

Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
So, adding all that, a very conservative number would be $200-$250/ kWhr for 8yrs to 10 yrs warranty.


Not implying that you'r wrong(the other EV manufacturers prob. do pay those prices, they slept for almost 10years dreaming about future gas powered cars.... ), just wanted to add the recent (march '21) Tesla costs:


We are now 4 months later, those prices should be even less 😉
 

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fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
This is the very thing that kept me from buying another Bosch-equipped bike last month after buying my first e-bike in late March (a Bosch bike). Instead my second e-bike is going a different direction.

I suppose I'm a poster-boy for that lack of battery education. My e-eduction has only begun but in the short time I've been learning, I know enough not to pay a Bosch premium for a battery again. I may try to sell this one on while its stock 36v13a battery is still good so I won't be stuck needing a Bosch supplied battery later. It's too bad because I like much of the rest of the Bosch system I have, the motor and response (ActiveLine Plus with Purion). Don't mean to single out the Bosch since there may be others who are charging those prices for a 36v13a battery too. My point is I like the Bosch but now know enough to not pay that kind of price for their battery. (Happy to be corrected if my viewpoint is not accurate.)
what's the big deal really? ya they are expensive but they have pretty much the best track record too. and I love how the bosch system works and how I can take it into far more shops when and if needed. plus that battery works on my tandem too. for the joy I get out of the bike its not too much. you cant compare the price to a car. bikes are always more expensive for what you get and e bikes are no different.
 

stw

Member
Region
USA
what's the big deal really? ya they are expensive but they have pretty much the best track record too. and I love how the bosch system works and how I can take it into far more shops when and if needed. plus that battery works on my tandem too. for the joy I get out of the bike its not too much. you cant compare the price to a car. bikes are always more expensive for what you get and e bikes are no different.
I love how the Bosch system works too. And I agree bikes are more expensive for what you get than cars; I didn't mention cars so you may have been replying to Ravi's original post where he does. Joy is good, and I find joy in other e-bike systems too besides Bosch.
 

GenXrider

Well-Known Member
My Bosch bike came with a 500wh battery and 2amp charger (new iZip in March). I've been stopping the charger at 4 out of 5 bars to get an 80% charge in hopes of a longer cycle life. I assume the Bosch's BMS auto shut-down happens at 100% charge.
I almost always charge to 80% or less. My bike has a voltage and percentage readout on the display. I still use a lot of muscle power when riding my e-bike, so range has never been an issue. I've used less than 20% charge riding over 50 miles. I will charge to 100% occasionally to rebalance the cells, but only if I plan to ride soon after so that it doesn't sit around stressing the cells. I don't consider this as something to "worry" about as some have stated - it's just good practice to get maximum longevity. My vendor had mentioned that the price increase is temporary and should be lower next year.
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Bicyclista

Active Member
I gather here are the items that people prefer in their E-bike battery pack.
  1. Long cycle life - a guaranteed life of 5 years or 50,000 miles usage before it hits 80% capacity.
  2. Top tier build quality (connectors, BMS, casing)
  3. Deep sleep mode that enables safe storage for ~6 months
  4. Very safe with 2 layers of protection
  5. A base charge rate of 4A, a fast charge of 7A
  6. You just plugin and the BMS takes care of everything, none of the 80% charge limit stuff.
  7. No compromise in the power at low voltage (i.e., very minimal voltage sag)
  8. Not so proprietary shape
  9. Supported 8 years (hard to predict technology that far ahead)
Achieving all these is not easy and would certainly incur a premium but it is a very worthy challenge to serve the E-bike community.
This month is a milestone for me. Completing my doctoral dissertation and starting my scientific career that is deeply connected to E-bikes. I turned down a very nice offer from Amazon so I could work on building Zen E-bikes and it would be deeply satisfying if I can serve the E-bike community by offering top-notch batteries and E-bikes.
@Ravi Kempaiah, congratulations on your PhD and turning down Amazon! Looking forward to your future e-bike and battery products!

As it turns out, the end of this month is the 5th anniversary of my Yamaha-powered Haibike. So, taking each item of the list above,
1. My Yamaha battery has lasted 5 years and still has 90-95% capacity. I have about 13,500 miles of usage. No complaints re its longevity.
2. Build quality is top tier, but connectors are proprietary. I cannot, for example, use a Grin Satiator.
3. I do not need a deep sleep mode in San Diego, but agree it should be offered.
4. My battery appears to be very safe. It has never overheated and never feels more than slightly warm to the touch.
5. I do not have a fast charge option and I don't feel I need it. (I would prefer a second battery at reasonable cost).
6. I use a timer to stop charging at more or less 80%. Yes, the BMS should take care of everything.
7. I have noticed that the battery drains much faster once it gets down below 20%. No compromise at low voltage would be very welcome.
8. A standard shape with universal connectors would be welcome.
9. Supported 8 years. Yes! I find that my ebike LBS, SD Fly Rides, is not interested in support very much, unfortunately. I use a non ebike LBS that works on everything except the electrical system. Fortunately, nothing has gone wrong with either the Yamaha motor or battery.

What else? I would like the battery to be smaller, lighter, and cheaper. I just bought a second battery, and it seems prices have gone down maybe only 5% since I bought my Haibike five years ago. That is not progress!
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
My buddy rides a trek/Bosch. 14,000 miles making the cost 9 cents a mile.
My Vespa got 50 miles per gallon. Fuel costs for 14,000 miles about $840 PLUS high maintenance costs. 6 cents a mile before adding oil change, belt change, and miscellaneous charges. Bosch batteries are extremely reliable and have excellent life cycles.

I’m staying with BBSxx series motors simply because I don’t want to be dependent on my LBS. But I’m firmly in support of those that decide to ride a spendy eBike and pay the toll. You’re buying your “gas” in advance.
 

kmccune

Active Member
A little over $300( not made of money) 21700 cells{ how many AH is the 4680? winter mode would be nice.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
A little over $300( not made of money) 21700 cells{ how many AH is the 4680? winter mode would be nice.
Like so many other advances in my short 7 years there have been all sorts of improvements, just that they are like trickle down economics. Painfully slow at best. Sorry for the sloppy edit. New app, thick skull.

Winter mode can be easily accomplished with the low voltage panels used in DC heated clothes.
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kmccune

Active Member
I do not like new apps these days,I have a lot going on and the learning curve is onerous to me, thanks for the link-Kevin Just checked apparently the "4680" is 25 AH, even if the Chinese cells are 20ah it would make a great 1 row battery-could you stack these end to end, to make say a 10 cell battery(32" too long can we series 2 rows of 5?)
 
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opimax

Well-Known Member
Update to my thoughts, I think a deep sleep mode is a great idea. I may not use it in my day to day style but I looked at some old batteries I have for bikes that are currently running but would have tried to sabve the batteries better
 

Dallant

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
My buddy rides a trek/Bosch. 14,000 miles making the cost 9 cents a mile.
My Vespa got 50 miles per gallon. Fuel costs for 14,000 miles about $840 PLUS high maintenance costs. 6 cents a mile before adding oil change, belt change, and miscellaneous charges. Bosch batteries are extremely reliable and have excellent life cycles.

I’m staying with BBSxx series motors simply because I don’t want to be dependent on my LBS. But I’m firmly in support of those that decide to ride a spendy eBike and pay the toll. You’re buying your “gas” in advance.
I tend to look at it similarly. As someone who has been waiting patiently for 9 months to get a 625wh “spare” battery that will be over $1k, I can tell you that I’m damn glad I’m not desperately in need! As a former professional videographer/photographer whose work depended on very high-end batteries in the field where failure was not an option, I can tell you spending for the best is the only way to be sure you’re getting the best. Fortunately, I worked very hard so I can afford it and in the end, you can’t take it with you.
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
My buddy rides a trek/Bosch. 14,000 miles making the cost 9 cents a mile.
My Vespa got 50 miles per gallon. Fuel costs for 14,000 miles about $840 PLUS high maintenance costs. 6 cents a mile before adding oil change, belt change, and miscellaneous charges. Bosch batteries are extremely reliable and have excellent life cycles.

I’m staying with BBSxx series motors simply because I don’t want to be dependent on my LBS. But I’m firmly in support of those that decide to ride a spendy eBike and pay the toll. You’re buying your “gas” in advance.
Yes, but you're buying your gas in advance as well but at a much lower cost and with 100's if not 1000's of sources. I think a battery from EM3EV is just as reliable as any of the spendy bikes and at less than half the price without all the proprietary engineering that adds no reliability.
I think the real advantages of the spendy's is integration and appearance.... and LBS support for those in need.
Now this has real value and in other circumstances I'm willing to pay the price of admission. But I do try to avoid being at the mercy of any manufacturer.
 
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rawlus

Active Member
Region
USA
battery standardization would go a long way towards accelerating ebike adoption. proprietary batteries and a lack of standardization is kind of silly. batteries are a commodity.
 

6zfshdb

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Northeast Pennsylvania
My thoughts:

As others have stated, a standard form factor, connector and BMS would be a definite plus. That way, discharged batteries could simply be swapped at any LBS for a charged one, similar to the way propane tanks are handled. This would be a useful advantage while touring. Unfortunately, this isn't likely to happen due to the wide assortment of form factors in use today.

I bought spare 52V, 15 AH batteries when I bought my Pedego bike and paid $750 apiece. They are quality batteries with a 2 year warranty. Now, after 3 seasons and over 8000 km, I have seen little or no deterioration in any of them. I charge to 100% before each ride, store at 40 - 70% and never discharge below 20%. I'm already looking at my next e-bike and I fully expect these batteries to outlast the useful life of the bike I have now. Personally, I don't see an advantage to paying more for a better battery with a longer warranty. For those riders who plan to keep their bikes for a longer period of time, such a battery might be worth the extra cost.

Battery fires are rare but do occur. I charge and store mine in a safe manner but I'd be willing to pay a 10 - 15% premium for a safer battery.

My Pedego batteries go into a sleep mode when not used for a month or more. They need to be connected to the charger to wake. I'm not sure if this is considered deep sleep.

A BMS that takes care of proper battery management would be a nice feature. IMO, it would be worth paying more, up to the cost of a quality programmable charger, like the Grin I use now.

I personally would be willing to pay up to $300 for a BMS that compensates for power loss due to voltage sag.

The Pedego came with a 4A charger and the battery will safely take a 6A charge. IMO, charging at 8A would be handy while travelling but not worth paying a significant premium for the feature.

I think the answer to many of your questions will depend on how long a rider plans to keep his e-bike. A conventional bike can last for decades if properly stored & maintained. The useful life of an e-bike has yet to be determined but it will most certainly be considerably less. Paying a premium for a quality battery & component set could pay off for those who plan to keep their bikes for an extended period of time.

Please note these observations are gained from my personal experience and may not represent those of the average e-bike owner.

BTW, congratulations on earning your doctorate. We are indeed fortunate to have you here at EBR!!
 

rawlus

Active Member
Region
USA
given the peculiarities of how to charge, store, cycle these batteries i’d probably be seeking an affordable smart charger at a cost effective price in addition to battery upgrades themselves. similar to grin.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
All your inputs are very much appreciated!

The E-bike market has seen a lot of growth and a lot of shoddy products.
There is always a market for high-quality products. Building a high-quality battery that has a super long life and very low risk, takes a lot of work.
Fortunately, we have access to very cutting-edge technology and supply chain. I gather here are the items that people prefer in their E-bike battery pack.
  1. Long cycle life - a guaranteed life of 5 years or 50,000 miles usage before it hits 80% capacity.
  2. Top tier build quality (connectors, BMS, casing)
  3. Deep sleep mode that enables safe storage for ~6 months
  4. Very safe with 2 layers of protection
  5. A base charge rate of 4A, a fast charge of 7A
  6. You just plugin and the BMS takes care of everything, none of the 80% charge limit stuff.
  7. No compromise in the power at low voltage (i.e., very minimal voltage sag)
  8. Not so proprietary shape
  9. Supported 8 years (hard to predict technology that far ahead)
Achieving all these is not easy and would certainly incur a premium but it is a very worthy challenge to serve the E-bike community.
This month is a milestone for me. Completing my doctoral dissertation and starting my scientific career that is deeply connected to E-bikes. I turned down a very nice offer from Amazon so I could work on building Zen E-bikes and it would be deeply satisfying if I can serve the E-bike community by offering top-notch batteries and E-bikes.
Are you planning Yamaha PW compatible batteries? In another thread you mentioned that Yamaha had a new battery in the works for 2021 but I haven't seen any other mention of it.
 

Ravi Kempaiah

Well-Known Member
Are you planning Yamaha PW compatible batteries? In another thread you mentioned that Yamaha had a new battery in the works for 2021 but I haven't seen any other mention of it.

We are in talks with a few OEMs.
For example, Bosch will test our batteries by the end of the year. If our batteries vastly outperform their current batteries, then we may pursue something more substantial with them.

Yamaha is another conservative Japanese company. Their batteries are pretty good actually, but they don't view the American market as something very important. EU market is 100x more for them. So, in short, no plans of working with them as of now.

Lack of standardization is hurting the industry. Bosch charger can't be used on Yamaha and Shimano doesn't with any of them. This is too silly.
Imagine if Honda car owners can only refill at BP station, Toyota car owners can refill at Shell, and GM owners can only refill at Exxon ? That would be outrageous and yet that is exactly what is happening in the industry. Not just within the E-bike industry and to some extent in the electric car industries but it's a bit better with cars.
 

AHicks

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Smart batteries would be nice if it could be done affordably. A smart battery would work in conjunction with the display to help identify "issues" like a dead/low cell for instance, even if it couldn't identify it specifically. The knowledge that condition exists would be enough of a heads up. Maybe also allow range/state of charge in a manner that was reliable and actually useful when riding - something that would not change depending on the current load, then change again as the load was reduced. Maybe predict the "age" of the battery in a manner that would be useful when trying to judge the condition of a battery - as in when making the decision to replace it, or when buying one used.
 

EMGX

Well-Known Member
We are in talks with a few OEMs.
For example, Bosch will test our batteries by the end of the year. If our batteries vastly outperform their current batteries, then we may pursue something more substantial with them.

Yamaha is another conservative Japanese company. Their batteries are pretty good actually, but they don't view the American market as something very important. EU market is 100x more for them. So, in short, no plans of working with them as of now.

Lack of standardization is hurting the industry. Bosch charger can't be used on Yamaha and Shimano doesn't with any of them. This is too silly.
Imagine if Honda car owners can only refill at BP station, Toyota car owners can refill at Shell, and GM owners can only refill at Exxon ? That would be outrageous and yet that is exactly what is happening in the industry. Not just within the E-bike industry and to some extent in the electric car industries but it's a bit better with cars.
That's unfortunate for Yamaha assist bike owners like me. My battery is fine but I wanted to have another for camp/ride tours that I do. I'm not going to pay $1000 for a 500w battery though. Some people on a German pedelec forum reverse engineered the Yamaha battery data packet and frequency. I built a Arduino dongle based on their original design but it had bugs. They have apparently worked out the bugs but their new design is more complex than I'm willing to try to copy. Maybe someone will bring one to market similar to the speed dongles that are available.