Why are Bosch motors only 250 watts?

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
So often the reply is but this bike has the power to climb Mount Everest (why do you need more?) - which is true, but its the way it delivers the power which could be improved for other types of riding. This is why I still like Hub Drive bikes - the power delivery is better (for gaining speed - not altitude) and more consistent.... The dream is combining the best elements from both types of motor but that's hard to achieve.
Would you climb that hill with your Ultra? Or, with a hub-drive motor e-bike?

Oh, these people are British! :)
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
This has turned ludicrous!
Mine's better!
In fact, greatest in the world!
:)
I meant: Power means nothing if you cannot use it, and your gear is inadequate. With such steep climb, technical skill is what matters in the first place. Secondly, the video proves the 250 W nominal motors can climb extremely steep hills if used properly. Too much power would mean rear-wheel slipping (or a wheelie) with a crash guaranteed. Rear-hub motor is so badly balanced the rider would fall on his back there. It's enough to say Giant SyncDrive Pro motor makes an e-MTB do a wheelie in max power setting and granny gear on steep climbing.
 

Gionnirocket

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Y. O.
I meant: Power means nothing if you cannot use it, and your gear is inadequate. With such steep climb, technical skill is what matters in the first place. Secondly, the video proves the 250 W nominal motors can climb extremely steep hills if used properly. Too much power would mean rear-wheel slipping (or a wheelie) with a crash guaranteed. Rear-hub motor is so badly balanced the rider would fall on his back there. It's enough to say Giant SyncDrive Pro motor makes an e-MTB do a wheelie in max power setting and granny gear on steep climbing.

Obviously you are ignorant to anything outside of your little world.
The Bafang motors are programmable by both motor speed and power for each PAS so you can easily set it to not spin the wheel. You can even do this with the THROTTLE.
Do that with your 1 donkey power motor that you have to bring to an LBS for any and all.
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
Could me show a Type Approval for an L1e-B you would use in Belgium?

This document, titled "EU Certificate of Conformity" is naming Type Approval in the heading. It is issued individually for each approved vehicle.

It is not a Polish thing. It is European thing, and this CoC would be valid in Belgium, too.

Now, YOU stick to facts.

OK, so Type Approval is also evidenced via a Certificate of Conformity. Interesting how there is no requirement to declare the origin of the Type Approval. I have seen one Italian cert - which they called a Certificate of Compliance - that was plastered with signatures and stamps. Apparently there's some marketing and theater involved with these.

I don't have a Belgium-specific L1e-B doc. I was researching this - extensively - to decide if I was going to be able to send bikes to my family members who live there. I was also doing research for a user group in the same country where the members living in the EU were having issues with their CoC's and their L1e-A's.
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
I meant: Power means nothing if you cannot use it, and your gear is inadequate. With such steep climb, technical skill is what matters in the first place. Secondly, the video proves the 250 W nominal motors can climb extremely steep hills if used properly. Too much power would mean rear-wheel slipping (or a wheelie) with a crash guaranteed. Rear-hub motor is so badly balanced the rider would fall on his back there. It's enough to say Giant SyncDrive Pro motor makes an e-MTB do a wheelie in max power setting and granny gear on steep climbing.
I can do a wheelie on any of my acoustic bikes in the granny gear if the climb is steep enough (its actually hard not to). Even moreso if I upset the weigh balance by putting on a 75mm riser stem :cool:

I just wanted to tell you that
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
OK, so Type Approval is also evidenced via a Certificate of Conformity. Interesting how there is no requirement to declare the origin of the Type Approval. I have seen one Italian cert - which they called a Certificate of Compliance - that was plastered with signatures and stamps. Apparently there's some marketing and theater involved with these.
I have only show a quarter of the document...
I don't have a Belgium-specific L1e-B doc. I was researching this - extensively - to decide if I was going to be able to send bikes to my family members who live there. I was also doing research for a user group in the same country where the members living in the EU were having issues with their CoC's and their L1e-A's.
There's nothing to research. Each certified L1e-B comes with its own individual CoC, indicating, among others: VIN, VIN placement codes (where the VIN can be found on the vehicle), a full page of technical specs and it is duly signed and stamped. If you're buying an L1e-B in Europe, it must come with proper CoC, or is illegal otherwise.

The European Union law you mentioned is the EU Ordinance 163/2013 of January 15th, 2013 regarding certification and control of the market for bikes, trikes, and quads. As I mentioned before, national EU lawmakers generally have ignored the L1e-A class (defined as "powered bicycle"). Therefore, most of jurisdictions only discuss:
  • Bicycle, that must be powered by human muscle (so no throttle), might be electrically assisted, and if assistance is present, it has to cease working at 25 km/h, be powered by not more than 48 V, with the nominal power limited to 250 W, or
  • Moped, which may have a throttle, can be ICE or electric, with power limited to 4 kW and speed up to 45 km/h. To make it simple, national laws generally place the whole L1e class in the "moped" type. Interestingly the L2e class (powered trike) is a moped, too.
  • Anything from L3e above is a motorcycle.
Neither a bicycle nor a moped are defined as "motorized" vehicles.

Since national EU jurisdictions have chosen to ignore L1e-A as a separate category and treat "powered bicycles" as mopeds, it is easy to understand why "CoC" that come with these powerful low speed e-bikes don't come through registration. (Missing VIN would be enough).
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
You should consider riding bikes more frequently
1623707745630.png

What about you?
 

m@Robertson

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
You're missing the point. You are using the forum as a word factory that offers primarily vitriol. I was thinking a bike ride would offer a level of serenity missing here but apparently its going to take more than that.
 

Stefan Mikes

Well-Known Member
Region
Europe
City
Brwinów (PL)
You're missing the point. You are using the forum as a word factory that offers primarily vitriol. I was thinking a bike ride would offer a level of serenity missing here but apparently its going to take more than that.
I hope you are following your own words. That you are riding a lot, and it provides you the serenity, reflected in peaceful sharing different views on this Forum. I can do it with 250 W.
 

TForan

Well-Known Member
This concept that if you are riding a bike with a Bafang Ultra , you must be a lazy American. How ridiculous . The power is there when you need it like a high performance car but that doesn't mean you are using full power all the time. You can get all the exercise you want but if you really need to blend with traffic, the power is there.
 

BruinMan

New Member
Region
USA
Hello forum, I’m about to buy my first ebike and I was leaning towards the Bosch equipped bikes because they have better sensor integration. But I was surprised to see that even the Performance Line Speed (Gen4) is 250 watts. In a marketplace where even entry level Chinese bikes are 1000 watts, why is Bosch sticking to such a low wattage?
Still don't understand the OP's question about a low wattage Bosch motor. I think he lives in Canada and his laws are 32km/h and he is looking into the Bosch speedline with a max assistance of 45km/h. Where is the OP at with all these replies? All I can say, the Bosch motor is more than you need for your eBike. It is a great motor with great electronics. For those that do extreme eMTB, well than I could be wrong.
 

linklemming

Well-Known Member
Still don't understand the OP's question about a low wattage Bosch motor. I think he lives in Canada and his laws are 32km/h and he is looking into the Bosch speedline with a max assistance of 45km/h. Where is the OP at with all these replies? All I can say, the Bosch motor is more than you need for your eBike. It is a great motor with great electronics. For those that do extreme eMTB, well than I could be wrong.
Agreed, the bosch is a great motor/system (as are the big 4 bosch,brose,shimano.yamaha). While they are more $$$ it pays off when you get more extreme in your eMTB adventures. They are usually offered on well integrated bikes with better components and good warranties

Personally for dedicated hard offroad eMTBing, I never see a need for any more power out of my Brose system and in fact run it in level 2 of 4 90% of the time and get excellent range with this setting. For this type of riding quality is just as important as quantity.

Higher power ebikes have their place as well....I enjoy them both
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
It would be fun if we could do a three-hour group ride will all these bikes that includes climbs, roads and trails.
 

Attachments

  • Rondo01.JPG
    Rondo01.JPG
    581.4 KB · Views: 16

Mr. Coffee

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
It would be fun if we could do a three-hour group ride will all these bikes that includes climbs, roads and trails.
You don't have to look very hard to find better ones, at least in North America.

I think this is a silly thread. Largely because all wattage ratings from all manufacturers are basically hyperbole. Some understate to meet local regulations, some overstate to get easily impressed folks to spend money on their products. So comparisons are not just odious, but extremely odious.

My preferred ride is a class 1 Bosch-equipped e-bike. I find in gentle terrain on low pedal assist I can pretty consistently get to motor cutout at 30-odd kph, so it is hard to imagine in gentle terrain how more power would actually help me. I find that on the steeper climbs torque matters more than raw power anyway, and the steepest climbs are inevitably rough so I am unlikely to be brapping uphill at 25kph.

I also tend to ride very long distances, so I am much more concerned with efficiency than speed. I find average speeds of 12-15mph on the flats to be the most efficient in terms of both my energy output and the batteries. At faster speeds that extra energy is basically used to push air around.
 

fooferdoggie

Well-Known Member
I also tend to ride very long distances, so I am much more concerned with efficiency than speed. I find average speeds of 12-15mph on the flats to be the most efficient in terms of both my energy output and the batteries. At faster speeds that extra energy is basically used to push air around.
I tend to ride 20 or so mph and even the n went fro ma average of 120 to 150 watts ro 170 or so I only got about 5 more miles in range.
 

PedalUma

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
I hit ignore this thread because of the infomercial spokes model advocacy of a particular brand, again and again from one person. Instead of listening and dialog, which is the sound of ping-pong or a stream of Vivaldi players in concert together, it was like Trump's pounding one twisted view again and again and again. Or Khrushchev's pounding of his shoe at the UN in 1960. No thank you.
 

BruinMan

New Member
Region
USA
I hit ignore this thread because of the infomercial spokes model advocacy of a particular brand, again and again from one person. Instead of listening and dialog, which is the sound of ping-pong or a stream of Vivaldi players in concert together, it was like Trump's pounding one twisted view again and again and again. Or Khrushchev's pounding of his shoe at the UN in 1960. No thank you.
Please explain? The topic is Bosch motors that are only available with 250 watts. I would hope the replies are to that of the Bosch motors. It is fine if you want to ignore the thread, but you don't need tell us what you plan to do. Just do it.
 
Last edited: