Why did Tora stop using dealers to sell bikes?

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
The large batteries are custom designed and built to Juiced Bikes specifications. But the mounting system is not proprietary so you would still be able to buy a replacement battery from somebody else if Juiced ever went out of business. That’s more than you can say for something like the original Specialized Turbo. Those batteries are proprietary to Specialized and once they run out you’re SOL.
 

Bruce Arnold

Well-Known Member
Those new frames and batteries look very custom, like they were built for Juiced bike.. Still it's just an eBike and there's always someone to replace a part, or built a battery pack.
The new big ones were designed by Tora for Juiced Bikes, but they are backwards compatible with any Juiced Bike except the ODK. Which means that the Reention batteries are forward compatible with the newer bikes.
 

JoePah

Well-Known Member
The new big ones were designed by Tora for Juiced Bikes, but they are backwards compatible with any Juiced Bike except the ODK. Which means that the Reention batteries are forward compatible with the newer bikes.


Yeah that is a logical cul de sac.. IF the new component is backwards compatible, there is no assurance the old component is forward compatible.. .In fact, if you look at the design it doesnt' look like it woudl fit at all. Could be wrong....
 

Bruce Arnold

Well-Known Member
Yeah that is a logical cul de sac.. IF the new component is backwards compatible, there is no assurance the old component is forward compatible.. .In fact, if you look at the design it doesnt' look like it woudl fit at all. Could be wrong....
Not logic. Fact. @Tora Harris has stated this specifically. It's the interface or mounting system that hasn't changed, not the batteries themselves.
 

Dunbar

Well-Known Member
Many e-bikes use the Reention mounting system so there are lots of batteries out there that would work in a CCS or RCS. The only catch is that there are different lengths of the Reention standard so you would need to know the length of the battery in order to determine if it would work.
 

NeilCruz

Active Member
Just wondering if I bought a DeLoren! There is a dealer in NZ that is very upset, claims it cost him thousand of dollars when Juiced stopped providing him bikes.

I suspect there were a lot of reasons but I can reverse engineer some of them based on the complaints I have heard on here:
  • Communication Issues:
    • Juiced product line seems to be following the new "Agile" methodology commonly seen in software startups (https://www.versionone.com/agile-101/agile-development-success/) which results in products that go through frequent, mostly incremental improvements
    • Over the long term this will result in better products but it has an impact, notably -
      • Training and updating a distributed sales teams will be hard and expensive
      • A dealer, who deals with multiple products, would understandably have a hard time not miscommunicating features and capabilities of a product that is incrementally changing multiple times a year.
      • Customers who visit a dealer Might be misinformed about features because of delays in training of sales staff -- or may be told X because that is what the dealer has in stock - even if X is no longer true if you ordered direct.
  • Dealer vs Direct conflicts
    • Both Juiced and Dealers have to invest a lot to make it work.
    • The advantage for Juiced of having a dealer network is clear:
      • Local support
      • Buying confidence
      • More predictable supply/demand
    • But what's the advantage for the LBS unless there is a big markup at the purchase point?
      • Dealer stock gets stale when Juice is making incremental bike improvements at the factory and at the warehouse
      • Customers who buy direct come into shop and expect support
      • Lets not forget that major productions problems (aka Spokes) make the lack of huge markup a bigger risk for the LBS too
When a LBS sells a bike with a $400-700 markup and you need to respoke the wheel, well you made less money than you wanted.
When your markup is $50-75, well that probably barely pays for the Parts+Labor, much less the customer concern that you sold them a bike that needed a respoke.

And is a good LBS going to tell the customer "I opened a ticket with Juiced and hope to have replacement spokes in 3-4 weeks"? No, they will respoke the wheel and then try to get reimbursed.


So as a consumer do you:
  • Want a bike for a cheap as you can get it
  • Want a bike that has fixed (or tries to fix) any production problems discovered as recently as 5-10 weeks ago?
    Or would you rather get a bike that is just updated once a year?
  • Do you want to pay an extra 500-1000 at purchase time to get faster in-warrantee service at your LBS (and drive off within 48hrs with your bike)?

I picked getting more Bang for my buck with the cost of some serious WAIT time between paying and getting the bike - and knowing that if I have a problem it will take longer to get fixed. Time will tell if I have analyzed the risk/rewards correctly

-Neil
 

Reid

Well-Known Member
I suspect there were a lot of reasons but I can reverse engineer some of them based on the complaints I have heard on here:
  • Communication Issues:
    • Juiced product line seems to be following the new "Agile" methodology commonly seen in software startups (https://www.versionone.com/agile-101/agile-development-success/) which results in products that go through frequent, mostly incremental improvements
    • Over the long term this will result in better products but it has an impact, notably -
      • Training and updating a distributed sales teams will be hard and expensive
      • A dealer, who deals with multiple products, would understandably have a hard time not miscommunicating features and capabilities of a product that is incrementally changing multiple times a year.
      • Customers who visit a dealer Might be misinformed about features because of delays in training of sales staff -- or may be told X because that is what the dealer has in stock - even if X is no longer true if you ordered direct.
  • Dealer vs Direct conflicts
    • Both Juiced and Dealers have to invest a lot to make it work.
    • The advantage for Juiced of having a dealer network is clear:
      • Local support
      • Buying confidence
      • More predictable supply/demand
    • But what's the advantage for the LBS unless there is a big markup at the purchase point?
      • Dealer stock gets stale when Juice is making incremental bike improvements at the factory and at the warehouse
      • Customers who buy direct come into shop and expect support
      • Lets not forget that major productions problems (aka Spokes) make the lack of huge markup a bigger risk for the LBS too
When a LBS sells a bike with a $400-700 markup and you need to respoke the wheel, well you made less money than you wanted.
When your markup is $50-75, well that probably barely pays for the Parts+Labor, much less the customer concern that you sold them a bike that needed a respoke.

And is a good LBS going to tell the customer "I opened a ticket with Juiced and hope to have replacement spokes in 3-4 weeks"? No, they will respoke the wheel and then try to get reimbursed.


So as a consumer do you:
  • Want a bike for a cheap as you can get it
  • Want a bike that has fixed (or tries to fix) any production problems discovered as recently as 5-10 weeks ago?
    Or would you rather get a bike that is just updated once a year?
  • Do you want to pay an extra 500-1000 at purchase time to get faster in-warrantee service at your LBS (and drive off within 48hrs with your bike)?

I picked getting more Bang for my buck with the cost of some serious WAIT time between paying and getting the bike - and knowing that if I have a problem it will take longer to get fixed. Time will tell if I have analyzed the risk/rewards correctly

-Neil
Wow. You nailed it. I didn't know any of this concern/cause/effect and open-ended choice we have. Am convinced by your presentation that I made the correct choice: I chose the CCS (2nd production) last September, and waited three months, till the end of December, for its delivery. Am glad I did! The bike has been great. Am glad JB makes incremental improvements in the same model, new benefits for each production generation are a sort of dividend for those who can stand to wait a few months.

Thank you, Neil, for explaining things so well!
 
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Rooster

Active Member
The large batteries are custom designed and built to Juiced Bikes specifications. But the mounting system is not proprietary so you would still be able to buy a replacement battery from somebody else if Juiced ever went out of business. That’s more than you can say for something like the original Specialized Turbo. Those batteries are proprietary to Specialized and once they run out you’re SOL.
Do the flx bikes have the same style battery?
 

NeilCruz

Active Member
Rooser,

FLX?

If that was a typo for RCS then.....

I believe (remember I don't HAVE my bike yet due to shortages of 19aH) that the RCS has a wide format battery but that the socket can handle both the older 48V batteries and the newer higher capacity batteries as well as the 52V. This belief comes from the FAQs

I believe that the actual mount is still Reention. I suspect the trick would be ordering the RIGTH Reention case if you are trying to build your own battery. If you are going to have someone else build it, I am hoping that the dimensions of the bracket + Reention + a photo will be all that is needed.
This belief comes from Tora's post here: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...pcurrent-s-fat-ebike.15741/page-3#post-126314


If FLX is FLX bikes.... well I don't know, this is the Juiced bikes forum. Maybe ask over in the FLX forum? In case you didn't see it, their forum is here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/forum/flx/
 

Rooster

Active Member
Rooser,

FLX?

If that was a typo for RCS then.....

I believe (remember I don't HAVE my bike yet due to shortages of 19aH) that the RCS has a wide format battery but that the socket can handle both the older 48V batteries and the newer higher capacity batteries as well as the 52V. This belief comes from the FAQs

I believe that the actual mount is still Reention. I suspect the trick would be ordering the RIGTH Reention case if you are trying to build your own battery. If you are going to have someone else build it, I am hoping that the dimensions of the bracket + Reention + a photo will be all that is needed.
This belief comes from Tora's post here: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...pcurrent-s-fat-ebike.15741/page-3#post-126314


If FLX is FLX bikes.... well I don't know, this is the Juiced bikes forum. Maybe ask over in the FLX forum? In case you didn't see it, their forum is here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/forum/flx/
I was asking if the battery on the flx bikes are reention and if they would work on the cross current or ocean current.
 

Bruce Arnold

Well-Known Member
Rooser,

FLX?

If that was a typo for RCS then.....

I believe (remember I don't HAVE my bike yet due to shortages of 19aH) that the RCS has a wide format battery but that the socket can handle both the older 48V batteries and the newer higher capacity batteries as well as the 52V. This belief comes from the FAQs

I believe that the actual mount is still Reention. I suspect the trick would be ordering the RIGTH Reention case if you are trying to build your own battery. If you are going to have someone else build it, I am hoping that the dimensions of the bracket + Reention + a photo will be all that is needed.
This belief comes from Tora's post here: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...pcurrent-s-fat-ebike.15741/page-3#post-126314


If FLX is FLX bikes.... well I don't know, this is the Juiced bikes forum. Maybe ask over in the FLX forum? In case you didn't see it, their forum is here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/forum/flx/
It's the Reention Dorado. Next question.
 

AndrewJB

New Member
Just wondering if I bought a DeLoren! There is a dealer in NZ that is very upset, claims it cost him thousand of dollars when Juiced stopped providing him bikes.

I bought my crosscurrent in Wellington early last year and had a similar feeling of dread when I heard about the local importers problems. I heard that the factory in China had stopped responding to his emails, they hadn't been supplying sufficient spare parts, and that our local importer had resorted to stripping unsold bikes to make repairs.

Not so long ago - on one of my several shop-visits - when collecting my CC after some rusty cables had been replaced, I was informed that these had been harvested in this way. I also heard the out of pocket amount is in the tens-of-thousands!!!

Nothing but good things to say about my interactions with the local dealer and the importer... and I do love my CC!!! But it now appears that the Juiced-New Zealand web site has been closed down, so I am a little worried what will happen next time something breaks...

Food for thought if anyone out there looking into purchasing a Juiced E-Bike!!!
 

SlowRider

Member
I bought my crosscurrent in Wellington early last year and had a similar feeling of dread when I heard about the local importers problems. I heard that the factory in China had stopped responding to his emails, they hadn't been supplying sufficient spare parts, and that our local importer had resorted to stripping unsold bikes to make repairs.

Not so long ago - on one of my several shop-visits - when collecting my CC after some rusty cables had been replaced, I was informed that these had been harvested in this way. I also heard the out of pocket amount is in the tens-of-thousands!!!

Nothing but good things to say about my interactions with the local dealer and the importer... and I do love my CC!!! But it now appears that the Juiced-New Zealand web site has been closed down, so I am a little worried what will happen next time something breaks...

Food for thought if anyone out there looking into purchasing a Juiced E-Bike!!!
You probably have seen this considering you live in New Zealand. According to this site the NZ importer for Juiced has gone out of business.

https://electricbikesnz.com/2016/12/17/juiced-crosscurrent-the-bike-that-changed-it-all/
 

Timpo

Well-Known Member
Yes, I have a (Yamaha powered) Haibike.

I am definitely ignorant about e-bike electronics, but even if the controller on your bike went bad, surely Bafang would have a compatible controller available.
Bafang is known for terrible customer service. They will not answer your emails and as a company, Bafang is shady comapre to Yamaha or Bosch.

They're only interested in selling their products in bulks to e-bike companies.

Watch this video, it will explain
 

Asher

Well-Known Member
Bafang is known for terrible customer service. They will not answer your emails and as a company, Bafang is shady comapre to Yamaha or Bosch.

They're only interested in selling their products in bulks to e-bike companies.

Watch this video, it will explain

That's a pretty common model. Seems like they let a few motors out to palliate hobbyists, but don't want to support them otherwise. Which is fine IMO as long as buyers know that.

The real question is if they have and honor warranties to the bike sellers like Juiced. Which I would assume they do. Or the price is so good sellers just buy them anyway and markup prices for the risk they're taking on sans warranty.
 

tomjasz

Well-Known Member
Bafang is known for terrible customer service. They will not answer your emails and as a company, Bafang is shady comapre to Yamaha or Bosch.

They're only interested in selling their products in bulks to e-bike companies.

Watch this video, it will explain
They may be miserable but some resellers do take good care and stock lots of parts.